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[Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
Chroma
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:19 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Sep. 19 2007,14:46)
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A Vampire is not needed. ?Leave the air assault out of the list.

There's not Vampire Raider in the list, so Saim-Hann can't actually make an air assault.

There is a Vampire *Hunter* though, which is supposed to be a Titan/heavy armour-busting aircraft.

I can personally stomach 4-, 6-, and 8-unit Aspect formations. ?It's not my favorite but it's okay. ?I do, however, dislike the variable size formations.

I'm of the mind that a "normal" Craftworld has a Aspect Warrior formation of six units; Craftworlds with depleted reserves or less of a focus on Aspect Warriors have 4-strong formations, and Craftworlds with an Aspect focus, whether specific or general, have 8-strong formations.

The Aspect Troupe in the Saim-Hann list is 6-strong, with no variable, and the focused Shining Spear Warhost is 8-strong.  Is that difference what you dislike, Neal?

Basically, there is great benefit and no downside to maxing every Wild Rider formation. ?I can't see any reason why anyone would ever not take the maximum upgrade.
Well, this initial 6.0 release was a clean-up/update to 1.8, as well as a few of the other more commonly accepted Saim-Hann changes.  For the most part, I just took MC23's point values with little change.

You make good points about the "discounts" and I'll be looking at those values in the next release.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:19 pm 
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Vampire Raider:  Someone asked about having Raiders above.  I was really responding to that concept rather than to the actual list.

Aspect:  I don't like the "x-size + optional additional units" setup for an aspect formation.  It's already customizable via aspect types.  Just set the size and be done.  Having different sizes for troupes v. hosts in the same list is okay.

Apparently, I'm just being unclear today...  :blush:

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:13 pm 
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Since I bothered to log in today, I'll throw in my $0.02.

a Strategy Rating of 3? Wouldn't that make them more of a reactive force rather than a lightning assualt force [which I infer includes some amount of 'surprise'] Can't we just stick with the SR 4?

Also, people might use more guardians in the list if you added an upgrade option of 2 wraithguard and 2 Wave Serpents. Make it cost 200 pts or so. That would give Guardians hosts/troupes something to do.
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Chroma
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:43 pm 
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(semajnollissor @ Sep. 19 2007,20:13)
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a Strategy Rating of 3? Wouldn't that make them more of a reactive force rather than a lightning assualt force [which I infer includes some amount of 'surprise'] Can't we just stick with the SR 4?

It was debated and eventually thought that SR3 reflected the "wildness" and unpredictability of the Wild Rider Clans going to war.  It's still to be tested, but I haven't heard any complaints, and it shows how little changes can make a list unique.

Also, people might use more guardians in the list if you added an upgrade option of 2 wraithguard and 2 Wave Serpents. Make it cost 200 pts or so. That would give Guardians hosts/troupes something to do.

I was actually thinking about that when I was putting the Guardian Troupe back into the army list document, but 1) There's no Farseer/Warlocks in the formation to guide them, and 2) would Saim-Hann really risk losing their dead like that in a high-speed attack?  

Wraith-units seem more of a defensive/static thing used by the Eldar, not something that's always used, so I don't mind certain lists not having access to them.

One can always use one of the other lists for a less "Wild Rider Clan"-focused Saim-Hann list on occasion.

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:53 pm 
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(Chroma @ Sep. 19 2007,15:43)
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It was debated and eventually thought that SR3 reflected the "wildness" and unpredictability of the Wild Rider Clans going to war. ?It's still to be tested, but I haven't heard any complaints, and it shows how little changes can make a list unique.

Well, I'm not sure I buy the "reflects their wildness," but we'll see. I think that SR3 puts them worse-off than were thay deserve to be, relative to the other armies in the game.

would Saim-Hann really risk losing their dead like that in a high-speed attack?

Well, they risk their living in a high speed attack, why not their dead too? Their supposed recklessness ought to result in SH having plenty of dead to put to work.

Wraith-units seem more of a defensive/static thing used by the Eldar, not something that's always used, so I don't mind certain lists not having access to them.
I think they only seem that way because that's all that they're able to do in E:A at this time. In 40k, they can be just as fast as any other infantry, they are just expensive. I realize Fire Dragons can fill the same role, I just don't think their is a fluff reason to disallow them.

One can always use one of the other lists for a less "Wild Rider Clan"-focused Saim-Hann list on occasion.
Ah, but you can't. No list, other than Iyanden (I presume), allows you to mount wraithguard. And in that army, wraithguard are the mainstay unit, not a support unit. I would suggest that if testing shows that guardian troupes are rarely taken, then throwing in a mounted wraithguard upgrade should be considered. (as for not having a seer guide, it could be easily assumed that a warlock is with them, but that he has no overall effects on their stats). Again, we'll see.

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Soren
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:22 am 
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(Chroma @ Sep. 19 2007,21:43)
QUOTE
It was debated and eventually thought that SR3 reflected the "wildness" and unpredictability of the Wild Rider Clans going to war.  It's still to be tested, but I haven't heard any complaints, and it shows how little changes can make a list unique.

Complain number two. In my opinion Eldar a a way too good, but it?s the same reason why I dislike SR5 in Ulthwe. SR +-1 greatly influences the tactics you use. And with the tactic the efficency of several units change. It?s a big difference if I can be sure to begin next turn (ulthwe :( ) or it?s more than questionable (Saim Hann), even if you use the same detachments.

I would prefer to NOT tweak around on SR or initiative. It influences much more than only "who begins".




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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:06 pm 
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I`ve played a few games with Saim Hann now and I like the list pretty much as is. I think the SR of 3, the lack of guardians all make more for a characterful list. IMO we just need to firm up on the cost of the wild rider clans and upgrades (need full points not a discount) and the list will about as good as it can get. I like the Raider as well - the Saim Hann don`t need a transport plane but I can see them using a fast bomber to soften up large targets before the jetbikes arrive. (and MC23 wanted all the variant lists to use as many of the models as possible)

The list has just a few crucial twists from the "standard" Eldat but it allows for a completely different gaming experience. To me thats pretty much everything I`m looking for in a variant army.
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semajnollissor
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:08 pm 
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Chroma, could you explicitly state in this thread what the guardian formation for this list is supposed to be? Is it a 6 stand troupe with 3 Wave serpents? For how much?

I was making a list today and saw no clear indications of what I was supposed to have available.
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Chroma
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:34 pm 
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New update available.

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