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Firestorms
1. Reduce AT value by 1 (so 2 x AP5+/AT6+/AA4+). 38%  38%  [ 8 ]
2. 0-2 replace Fire Prisms, and free upgrades in Shields. 19%  19%  [ 4 ]
3. 0-2 replace Fire Prisms, and free/25/50 upgrade in Shields. 10%  10%  [ 2 ]
4. 0-2 for 75 each, and free/25/50 upgrade in Shields. 33%  33%  [ 7 ]
Total votes : 21

Firestorms

 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:21 pm 
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The point being overlooked is that the unit stats are only haly the story. IG Hydras are virtually impossible to supress when played properly (center of formation etc) - consequently the IG player should always get at least 4-6 shots off against enemy air from only 4 units on the table. OK, statistically you should only get a single hit, which will not prevent the attack hitting home, (this is compensated for in other ways), but it means that the following turn, there is a high probability that the aircraft stands down - all enemy air formations that is.

We all agree that Eldar Firestorms beat Hydra hands down on stats alone. However, it is the formation sizes and costs that are important:- in a three strong formation, a single hit reduces the 6 shots at awsome stats - to ZERO, nada, zilch. Even in a 5 strong SoV formation, a single hit automatically supresses one of the two units (you have to make sure you approach from the opposite side remember) - and a single FS in a SoV formation can usually be circumvented with care. And because of the costs, the Eldar player is forced to set aside a significant amount of points to do this - between 500 - 900 points in a 3000 point army for 2-4 formations (rather than 200 points for Hydras, or 300 points for Hunters)

Thawks can perform a fly-by (outside AA range) and shoot the crap out of enemy AA - or try landing short - dropping of the troops in cover and shooting (you don't always have to assault!) - Landing craft do it even better, and if packed with Whirlwinds (plus others), you retain to drop two templates all over the skulking Eldar, preparing for the assault proper. Warhounds can bound forward and shoot the crap out of these puny formations as well (as can Landspeeders).

As I said, two or three such attacks will normally strip or at least suppress most Eldar ground AA by mid to end turn 1, and the process is repeated in turn 2 if needed. Even the threat of this can be sufficient to deter Eldar advances - thus handing the initiative to the opposition.

The issue has been accentuated by some of the changes in 1.8, and Sotec is to be congratulated on his efforts at toning the army down as a whole, but IMO this is a step too far. Personally, I would love to sprinkle FS around different formations (when its stats would become an issue), but this falls outside the Eldar racial style of specialised formations.

Firestorms are very dangerous if you fly straight at them (and hence the higher points values), but if properly countered, they are not the bogeyman being portrayed here.

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 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:17 pm 
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Sorry Ginger not buying it...

Suppression can affect any unit in range (whether or not it has AA), so those Firestorms can keep firing until the formation breaks. Also guard may be able to attach a single hydra to formations, but that means you get 1 hydra per 700 points for tanks/artillery, or 1 per 450 for mech infantry or 1 per 300 for normal infantry.  Also guard can't get any other ground AA bar Hydras, whereas Eldar get it on their titans and Cobras. Eldar also get Lance armed interceptors which are particularly deadly to RA air transports.

6 strong swords at only 300 points with skimmer and hit and run are not anywhere near as delicate as you are making out if used correctly in my opinion. (Note that Swords will probably be going down to a single Firestorm by the way, while Shields will go back to 0-3).

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 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:00 pm 
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In my experience, 1 FS is very hard to position to avoid either being hit outright or suppressed from the 2MS you get for being hit - and I am including the use of the other falcons before you ask.

Hit-and-run helps a lot giving the formation a strike range of approx 90 cms from the table edge, but leaves it on the baseline, and thus limits the mobility of other formations if they want to remain under the umbrella. Use of terrain (with skimmer) also helps, but usually leaves firelanes that can be exploited by long range weaponry. And don't forget that OW is a very effective weapon against Hit-and-run!

I do not disagree regarding AA capabilities of Nightwings, Titans and Cobras, each of which have their own strengths and weaknesses - eg nightwings will kill an enemy air formation given the correct circumstances and dice; letting the other two through unmolested.

As for the points comparisons, I don't disagree that Hydras get added to other formations, that is precisely the point! These formations get on with their primary role dragging the AA with them across the centre of the battlefield, each dominating a 90cm area. For Eldar it is quite the reverse - the SoV and especially the SHoV "AA" formation cannot really perform that role in the centre of the battlefield (where the Hydra is) precisely because of its fragility.

Are you advocating that everyone should field the same army - because in essence, that is what it feels like. So we end up with (say) 2x SHov and 1x S0V as a minimum (for 600 points) suplemented by Nightwings, Cobra(s) and/or Revenants in every game - seems very bland, boring and predictable to me.





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 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:22 pm 
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Whoa, at last someone that understands. :D That really means a lot if added AA is extra or instead of upgrade. Especially with eldars fragile formations.

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 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:12 am 
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So a couple of eldar players argue that firestorms with 6(!) stat boosts for no extra points are fine, because they are in fragile formations (?)

Anyone else? Or is it just some eldar players as might be expected?

Do you guys play any other armies by the way, or is it just eldar? Playing both with and against Eldar myself I disagree with your characterisation. Firestorms have been wickedly effective for the points in their current form in my experience.


Sotec has already proposed reducing the FS to 0-1 in Swords, and leaving it at 0-3 in Shields. Possibly just tweaking the AT on top of that might be the easiest solution given it's relative popularity here and in the previous poll...

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 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:10 am 
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Don't forget that I am not supportive of changing Fire Storms either.

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 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:22 am 
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Hena you were in favour of even more extreme changes than anyone else a few posts ago! :D

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 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:48 am 
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Fair enough... :)

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 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:05 pm 
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I am suggesting a delay in the decision to change it rather than outright opposition (even though it sounds that way), because I do not think even now that we have sufficient play testing or expeirence of the 1.8 list. For what it's worth, I have both used and fought against Eldar, and used a number of other armies including Marines and Tau.

Incidentally some of my views about the fragility of the SoV AA formations were formed when testing the Tau A10-1-0 Tiger Shark with The-Real-Chris, where he deliberately used the first two or three passes (of five) to shoot up the 5x unit Falcon fomations.

While slightly different circumstances, the point is that try as I might, I found it virtually impossible to position the Falcons to let them be suppressed for AA purposes even after just one killed unit (2x BMs) on the standard formation with 2x FS.

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 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:19 pm 
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I'm one of the few main eldar players here,and I have fought against my own eldar couple of times and Firestorms have never felted overpowered. Usually they are broken of totally killed after 1 turn, and it is quite hard to rally with them.

I have other armies too (marines, BL, DE, Ulthwe and IG coming next year) and those lists have their issues too, especially chaos. Limiting Firestorms to 1 per SoV really cuts out eldar AA power enough.

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 Post subject: Firestorms
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:41 am 
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Locking this as things have moved on from the ideas in this poll now. Looks like Sotecs 1.8 proposals will do for now.

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