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[Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
Chroma
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:17 pm 
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Here's my take on an update for Saim-Hann. ?This list is assumed to be using the Eldar 1.8 changes.

Added:

Wild Rider Chieftan as Supreme Commander (Autarch added to any Wild Rider unit).

Shining Spear Warhost (8 Shining Spears, add one Exarch)

Changed:

Strategy Rating 3

Wild Riders lose MWCC attack

Wild Rider Clan Warhost: 1 Wild Riders unit and 6 Jetbikes as base formation.

Increased Aspect Troupe to 6 stands

Jetbike Farseer is now "Mounted Farseer" character and can be added to Jetbike or Vyper.

Removed:

Nothing... I think.

Please take a look and comment viciously!

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Dave
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:46 pm 
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I think a different stat line for a Wild Rider Chieftan would be in order.  I like the idea, I just don't think a Chieftan would be nearly as powerful as an Autarch.  I think the old Wild Rider stats with the MW CC attack would be good enough, plus Supreme Commander.

Are the Spears really that predominant on Saim-Hann that a warhost entry is needed for them?  I think it should be drop unless the fluff says otherwise, same thing with the Rangers too.

Why was the regular Vampire excluded from this list?




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Chroma
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:56 pm 
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(Dave @ Aug. 20 2007,18:46)
QUOTE
I think a different stat line for a Wild Rider Chieftan would be in order. ?I like the idea, I just don't think a Chieftan would be nearly as powerful as an Autarch.

Well, it represents the biggest Chieftan of the bunch! ?*laugh*
Are the Spears really that predominant on Saim-Hann that a warhost entry is needed for them?

From the new Eldar Codex:

Saim-Hann is the craftworld with the largest proportion of Shining Spears Aspect Warriors...

So, to me that seemed reason enough to include them as a better option. ?
I think it should be drop unless the fluff says otherwise, same thing with the Rangers too.
Why drop Rangers? ?I can see Saim-Hann's Rangers calling in the Wild Riders when they've found a suitable target.
Why was the regular Vampire excluded from this list?
I'm just working from the last version that MC23 posted, and it didn't allow for the "normal" Vampire, just the Hunter.

I'll look into that.

Thanks for the comments!

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:58 pm 
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(Dave @ Aug. 20 2007,18:46)
QUOTE
I think a different stat line for a Wild Rider Chieftan would be in order. ?I like the idea, I just don't think a Chieftan would be nearly as powerful as an Autarch. ?I think the old Wild Rider stats with the MW CC attack would be good enough, plus Supreme Commander.

Other than adding an invulerable save and a potential +1FF attack, that's what adding the Autarch to a Wild Riders unit provides.

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Dave
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:06 pm 
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(Chroma @ Aug. 20 2007,13:58)
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Other than adding an invulerable save and a potential +1FF attack, that's what adding the Autarch to a Wild Riders unit provides.

Yes, but it's because of those that I think a seperate stat line would be better.  I don't think the FF or the invulnerable save is necessary.

OK on the Spears then, the only other comment I make would be allow them to take 2 Exarchs as normal.

I'd say drop the Rangers only to differentiate the list from others.  That whole "defined by what it doesn't have" thing.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:50 pm 
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Autarch upgrade is kind of easy way to go about it I guess. Alternative is to make up stats as Dave says.

Revenants to 600.

Why 6 aspect warriors? What justification given that other non-Biel-Tan craftworlds have only 4?

If Shining Spears allowed curious as to only 1 Exarch for a 8 strong host (because they are not as 'Aspecty' as Biel Tan?). What about 6 stands?

In all your swords and shields troupes you will eventually need to adjust appropriately as Firestorms are clearly overpowered - note my polls on the matter. Your support for changing 1.8 Shields to have only 0-1 Firestorm upgrade is where? I wouldn't make random changes to 1.8 eldar templates without good reason.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:01 am 
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Initial thoughts on list:

Why can't an Autarch be added to the Shining Spears Warhost instead of a Chieftain, especially if we are going to use the same states.

Not sure on changing Aspect Troupe to 6. This has caused the greatest change to my proposed list as I have had to drop an activation to incorporate the additional costs of the two stands. Is it proposed to change this across the board with all the other lists?

Overal not a great deal of change to my testing list as I was playing with increased cost for the jetbike upgrades, but the reduction in their armour save has balanced this out. Note I would add the stats for the bikes to the SH army list to make sure that the reduced armour save is used for them as they are too powerful with a 4+ save.

I would now drop the Vamp Hunter as it is no longer worth the points and is not needed in my opinion. Standard V Raiders could be allowed to transport aspect troupes onto the table, but again I would want the troupe size reduced to 4 to allow for two troupes to be transported in one raider.

Tim

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Flogus
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:05 pm 
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Nice to see Saim Hann list evolve.

Shining Spears ost, ok, fine in a Saim Hann list, but others 6 Aspect Troupes, I'm not with that.
"Autarque" is an easy idea to translate the Wild Rider chieftain. And as it's not a true autarque, it's normal not to be available to Shining Spears osts.

Strategy Rating of 3 will be a great change, but having now a SC (and no overcost on jetbikes, like in last MC23 propositions) is a fair counterpart.




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Chroma
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:48 pm 
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(Flogus @ Aug. 21 2007,22:05)
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Shining Spears ost, ok, fine in a Saim Hann list, but others 6 Aspect Troupes, I'm not with that.

In my mind, I see Biel-Tan with the big formations of Aspect Warriors (eight units). [Plus the occasional strike force of four units, Markonz!   :D ]

The moderately militant Craftworlds (Alaitoc and Saim-Hann) with moderate sized Aspect Warrior formations (6 units).

And the "fewer Aspects" Craftworlds (Iyanden and Ulthw?) limited to the small Aspect formations (4 units).

Alaitoc and Saim-Hann are still have strong Aspect Warrior Path followers and I don't think they should be restricted to the small units.

In the Alaitoc list they start with a 4-strong unit that can be boosted to 6-strong, perhaps I'll do the same thing in Saim-Hann.

Thoughts?

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:13 am 
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(Chroma @ Aug. 21 2007,21:48)
QUOTE
In my mind, I see Biel-Tan with the big formations of Aspect Warriors (eight units). [Plus the occasional strike force of four units, Markonz!   :D ]

Oh indeed Chroma, and by all means use those special task forces in scenarios if you want, but those occasional strike forces are not part of standardised Biel-Tan force organisation which  is what tournament lists are supposed to represent.

In the tournament list it seems most people view them for what they are - an unneccessary cheesy addition added because it is something eldar players would like to have in games.  As I said, I play Biel-Tan and I don't need or want that kind of help...  Also adding such a unit to Biel Tan opens the floodgates for adding lots of other formations people would like to have in other lists. Just for a start why shouldn't other craftworlds be able to combine their limited aspects to form a single host?

No, balanced tournament lists are supposed to be about restriction as much as choice. Keep it out of Biel Tan (as I have now done for the handbook after community feedback on the matter, which is likely as official as any rules will be anytime soon), and keep the other lists as distinct and characterful as possible. Like MC23 said the more lists overlap the less point there is in bothering to develop separate lists as they all start to look the same and play the same. Strict separation - keep it that way.

As to 6 strong aspects in Alaitoc and Saim-Hann - maybe  :)

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Dave
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:32 pm 
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Instead of adding a fixed number of Jetbikes to the Jetbike Warhost why not allow 1-6 Jetbikes to be purchased at +25 points each?

Also, on the Hunter again.  Does it not have a transport capacity in 40k as well?

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Flogus
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:03 pm 
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Why removing the Guardians Troupe ?
Not every Saim-Hann people born on a jetbike :)

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:55 pm 
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(Flogus @ Sep. 18 2007,23:03)
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Why removing the Guardians Troupe ?
Not every Saim-Hann people born on a jetbike :)

*THAT* would be a major oversight... *laugh*  Thanks for catching that...

Though it seems to show how rarely people use Guardians in a Saim-Hann list!  *laugh*

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [Saim-Hann] Army List Update Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:46 pm 
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A Vampire is not needed.  Leave the air assault out of the list.  Saim-Hann assaults should be lighting fast, hit-and-run affairs.  Bikes and wave serpents appearing out of nowhere and disappearing just as quickly.  Aircraft landing just doesn't fit the image.  It's too much of a static commitment.  Besides, this list should be the consummate Eldar "rolling assault" list.

I can personally stomach 4-, 6-, and 8-unit Aspect formations.  It's not my favorite but it's okay.  I do, however, dislike the variable size formations.

My major problem with the list is Big/Uge Jetbike Mobz.

Bike formations are relatively small and fragile.  Going from 6 to 9 to 12 units is a big improvement in durability beyond just a straight per-unit-cost number count.  They don't need a discount for building bigger formations on top of that.

Optimizing this list creates a horde army.  You almost double the formation size for a 50% increase in points (250 for 7 units +125 for +6 bikes).  Orks have to take Uge mobz to get close to that level of discount and even then only a few of the point progressions dip that far.  I can't imagine why anyone would ever pass that up.  With the combination of a reasonable 375 point price tag for the formation and the ability to take less expensive Troupe formations, it's not like you'll run into an activation disadvantage.

Basically, there is great benefit and no downside to maxing every Wild Rider formation.  I can't see any reason why anyone would ever not take the maximum upgrade.

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