Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 100 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
1. MW4+ Ignore cover 48%  48%  [ 13 ]
2. AP3+/AT4+, Small Arms +1EA Ignore cover 22%  22%  [ 6 ]
3. Something else (state below) 30%  30%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 27

Demolisher Cannons - What to do?

 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:04 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:42 am
Posts: 694
Location: Austria
Again this is 4 tries and mathematically 2 hits for a 300 pts unit which should be good in FF (at least when I look at the list background) Again not a real boost, will never take this formation. Destructors can even shoot and they are overprized (with the same FF value and +5cm more speed), but this guys are senseless on every view. The argument for throwing them on cover units is ridiculous. Too small, too few shots, paperthin armor and too slow.

Give me Demolishers for my marines. I will execute the Master of the Armory if he gives such a crappy vehicle like the Vindicator to the frontline companies :D

My (just joking) 0,002 cents ;)

Soren





_________________
Attrition is the proof of absence of Strategy


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:45 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
I think extra move, Walker, and 3+FF would make it an excellent close support/assault vehicle.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:56 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
I think extra move, Walker, and 3+FF would make it an excellent close support/assault vehicle.


I'd still take the cheaper, faster, more flexible, more numerous, able to take cover, longer ranged, higher number of shots, Devestator formation.


The Vindicator needs to be useful as an assault gun. That's its niche, not close support vehicle.

I might consider a FF3+, Walking Vindicator for 225pts for 4. Maybe.





_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:25 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
I'd still take the cheaper, faster, more flexible, more numerous, able to take cover, longer ranged, higher number of shots, Devestator formation.


Didn't you just take Hena to task for an "oversimplified" comparison in another thread?

Devs are a  lousy comparison with Vindicators as they have completely different battlefield roles.  Vindis are mobile firepower and close support.  Devs are static "base of fire" units.  They should not be considered competitors for purposes of internal balance.

Just to provide an example, a staple tactic for marines is double/support.  In no circumstances would I prefer to try to do that job with Devastators instead of Vindicators.  Vindicators get more hits than Devs when doubling, regardless of target.  They always move at full speed, whereas Devs can be ground down to 15cm move with paltry effort.  Even if the Devs miraculously manage to  maintain their speed, the added FF support of the transports still doesn't make up for the extra damage done by Vindicators during the double move and has little chance of affecting the assault resolution.

The advantages you list either don't exist in practice, e.g. speed which is easily countered, or only show up when Devs are used in their optimum role as a base of fire, e.g. range which doesn't matter if you also intend to support an assault.

The Vindicator needs to be useful as an assault gun. That's its niche, not close support vehicle.
You're going to have to explain this distinction to me.  The definition of an "assault gun" that I've always operated under is pretty much what wikipedia says, which explicitly includes support of infantry:
a gun or howitzer mounted on a motor vehicle or armored chassis, designed for use in the direct fire role in support of infantry when attacking other infantry or fortified positions.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:58 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Didn't you just take Hena to task for an "oversimplified" comparison in another thread?


Okay, let's rumble. :D

Devs are a  lousy comparison with Vindicators as they have completely different battlefield roles.  Vindis are mobile firepower and close support.  Devs are static "base of fire" units.  They should not be considered competitors for purposes of internal balance

I disagree. I think both units bear direct comparison, especially when you're looking at raising their FF to 3+.

Just to provide an example, a staple tactic for marines is double/support.  In no circumstances would I prefer to try to do that job with Devastators instead of Vindicators.

Then I'm reckoning you're missing out on the most important ability of the Devestator formation.

Vindicators get more hits than Devs when doubling, regardless of target.

But Vindicators have to double first (Unless you're going to raise the Vindicator's speed to 30cm, to match the 15cm+45cm of Devestators, potentially 35cm+45cm if they start the turn in Rhinos).

They always move at full speed, whereas Devs can be ground down to 15cm move with paltry effort.

And as noted, Vindicators still have to double first, in addition they cannot take cover in buildings, so their paltry armour will be taking hits sooner.

Even if the Devs miraculously manage to  maintain their speed, the added FF support of the transports still doesn't make up for the extra damage done by Vindicators during the double move and has little chance of affecting the assault resolution.

That depends how many vindicators have been surpressed (You can surpress Rhinos if you get close enough, and still maintain your full number of ranged shots).


The advantages you list either don't exist in practice, e.g. speed which is easily countered, or only show up when Devs are used in their optimum role as a base of fire, e.g. range which doesn't matter if you also intend to support an assault.

I disagree. I think your proposed FF3+ Vindicator would still be qualitatively inferior under almost all battlefield conditions to a Devestator formation, whilst being expected to fulfill a very similar battlefield role (Albeit a slightly more limited one), and in addition it would be 25pts more expensive than the Devestators!


You're going to have to explain this distinction to me.

The 'gun' part of the Vindicator isn't good enough. FF3+ is one way to resolve this, but right now I don't think it's the best way.





_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:02 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
E&C, you are not thinking in terms of actual in-game use.  Your assertions about the actions the Vindicators will have to take v. what the Devs do is in some cases exactly backwards.  Vindicators, in their primary role of assault support, are going to be faster and project better firepower than Devs in all but a few rare circumstances.  In some cases, much better.

If you're supporting an assault, the Dev weapon range is 15cm, same as the Vindicators.

The effective range of Vindies to double/support is 65cm (assuming the 25cm move).  The effective range of Devs is 75cm, 80cm only if you don't want any transport support.  Not a big difference but it might affect the game in rare cases.

The effective range of Vindies to advance/support is 50cm.  The Devs is 30cm.  That's a real difference in threat range.  It's a 2/3 increase and, more importantly it extends past 45cm range weapons' "stand off" distance (a very common weapon range in the game).  It is a critical range at which much of the game action takes place.  If you are trying to support an assault, Devs are actually much more likely to be forced to double move than the Vindicators, not the other way around.  With Vindicators taking a single move and Devs forced to double or not support the assault, there is absolutely no comparison.

Or you can keep the Devs loaded to get 45cm advance/support range (50cm w/o transport support), in which case they have given up a round of fire and taken an increased risk of being killed while loaded.  That's a substantial sacrifice and a big risk just to pull even with the Vindicators.

So:

5-15cm to target, with LoS, Devs are better (rather rare)
15-30cm (and 5-15 w/o LoS), Devs and Vindis are comparable
30-50cm Vindis crush the Devs
50-65cm Vindis marginally better
65-80cm Devs are better (Vindis can't be used) (rather rare)

The Devs could move to support against the assault target while firing at a third formation farther away.  However, like the very close and very long range examples, the times at which that is likely to be a valid choice are rare.


You also brought up suppression and durability.  Devs can use cover.  Big deal.  Many weapons hit AP better than AT anyway, so using cover is just barely better than breaking even on hits scored.  Devs' armor is as good or better than most cover anyway so they gain no benefit from the save.

Adding vehicles makes the formation vulnerable to AT fire.  If they have transports, the transports cannot, and remain a fine target for arty and air even if out of LoS.  Rhinos and Razorbacks also have a lower save than the Devs, making it easier to kill them and add BMs.

You also ignore the fact that Vindicators can and should use cover as well, especially if they have Walker ability.  The -1 for "hull down" counts for partially obscurement and should be applied generously.  The ruins provided on the old infantry base sprues would be sufficient to partially obscure a Vindi from ground fire, as would being in woods as long as they are reasonably far back from the edge of the terrain piece.  The only advantage Devs have in that regard is terrain that is impassable to Vindis, but then the Devs' transport has the same problems as well.

Compare the results of taking the same fire in any reasonable battlefield position and most of the time the Devs will lose their transport almost immediately and both formations end up with similar numbers of unsuppressed units.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:12 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
E&C, you are not thinking in terms of actual in-game use.


*shrug*

Your argument seems to depend on Devestators losing their transports in every game before they get the chance to move, when Vidicators have barely better armour than Rhinos... and decent AT salvo is going to knock both types of vehicle out pretty regularly, no?


Ultimately, I'm willing to test a up-speeded Vindicator (Apparently you favour 25cm), but I'm 98% confident that while Marine tanks keep their thin armour and high cost, the vindicator will remain an inferior choice to the Devestator formation, which can undertake other roles on the battlefield once it has lost its transports.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:41 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Your argument seems to depend on Devestators losing their transports in every game before they get the chance to move...


That's not a requirement for Vindis to be better.  Even with transports intact, Devs are worse than Vindis at supporting assaults.  With the transports, they still only have marginally faster move on a double move and are slower on Advance.

That's assuming that the transports can pick them up, which means the Devs' use of cover is limited.  The transports have to move over the Devs in order to pick them up means no impassable cover and terrain checks if the Devs are in terrain that requires it.

In practice, they do, obviously, lose transports very quickly.

when Vidicators have barely better armour than Rhinos... and decent AT salvo is going to knock both types of vehicle out pretty regularly, no?

No.  Not even close.  -1 to hit for being in cover and 1 better on the armor save makes a big difference.  It's going to cut the number of kills by 50% or more in most cases.

v AT4+ -

Transports in the open:
6 AT 4+ = 3 hits. 5+ saves = 2 kills on average.

Vindis in cover:
6 AT5+ (4+, -1 for cover) = 2 hits.  4+ saves = 1 kill on average.

Transports in cover 3 Rhinos, 1 Razorback):
6 AT5+ = 2 hits.  5+ saves = 4/3 kill
Dangerous terrain checks = 2/3 kill
Still 2 kills on average

That's half damage to the Vindicators unless the transports move cautiously to get the cover save, in which case they are self-neutralizing.  AT 5+ will be worse, as hits are halved by the cover save alone.  Until you start considering MW attacks with a 4+ or better to hit, Vindis will take half damage or less.

Now, suppose those AT shots are coming from Fightabommas or Leman Russ or some other AT-oriented formation that also has some decent AP fire.  That just piles on kills and BMs.

A 4BP Manticore barrage will shred the Devs, even in cover (4 AP4+, 4 AT4+ = 2-3 kills, 5 BMs, almost completely suppressed) while the Vindis will shake it off (4 AT5+ = <1 kill, 2-3 BMs, at most half suppressed).

In fact, the more I write, the more I think that all those changes might actually result in Vindicators that are overpowered.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:10 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
In fact, the more I write, the more I think that all those changes might actually result in Vindicators that are overpowered.


I'm willing to test Vindicators with 30cm, Walker, FF3+.

I confidently expect them to underperform as compared to your theory-hammer, however, though I'll be happy if I'm proved wrong and Vindicators go from useless to useful. I'm still skeptical however.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Demolisher Cannons - What to do?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:27 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand
Problems Neal.

First off - vindis will get a speed increase, that isn't even a matter of debate as far as I can see. Walker also perhaps.

Now for the actual demolisher which is why I started this thread.

1. FF3+ on vindis has been debated and shot down before. Vindi has much less Firepower than a LR Demolisher and the only gun it does have is one that is also on a LR Demolisher - and yet you want to give it the same FF? A little problematic.  Yes you might say a marine demolisher is better somehow... but that idea has also been shot down numerous times previously...

2. Constant ongoing criticisms exist that the Demolisher stats are simply not appropriate. Ogryn clubs are MW but the most powerful gun in 40k is not? Come on. People want this gun to bust things ? it hits it should be very bad news for the target. Not some minor weird abstraction that is little different to what ended up going into the EA rules first time around and causing problems. Epic 40k was criticised for not having the feel of individual weapons correct, and this certainly feels like a case of that again to me.  

3. This poll and all the many prior debate and polls on this subject. About half of people polled so far support the MW proposal. Even more voting for option 3 support MW in some form if not exactly the one above (ie they want it MW but more or less powerful in various ways). In short MW ideas have a high level of acceptance, other ideas have much more marginal and isolated support.

4. This debate is a VERY old one.  Here we have yet another 100 post long thread on the subject, but at least it seems to have found (as E&C said) a "nonconservative consensus" which is far better than anything I've seen before on the subject. People have had plenty long enough to make up their mind by now - literally years. At some point this ridiculous neverending process has to stop and a decision has to be made.

I've recorded at least half and really more like 2/3 in favour of MW in some form, equal, or more or less powerful than proposal number 1 above. I have first playtest reports from people who have got sick of waiting and are saying they like MW on their vindis and baneblades.  I'm seeing a remaining 1/3 of people who all seem to have their own highly individual pet desires in one direction or another.

Why would I want to continue with the endless circular debate on this after all these years when I have that? Why would I want to continue annoying the majority of epic players on this issue? As far as I'm concerned I'm ready to bank it. People can start another debate on this if they want but I am done for now. Any new debate I will point people to this.

Good enough for now. If it doesn't work out it, it can be changed at a later date and good luck to anyone else who wants to try and debate this all over again. Enough of a mandate for me to stick it in the handbook, and happy to switch at some future point if that is proven necessary.

Post 99 = topic closed and all demolishers become MW4+ Ignore Cover. Thanks for the votes and feedback.

_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 100 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net