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[Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:34 pm 
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Okay, I've got an idea for an "Unstoppable alternative", I was thinking about it last night, and some of the stuff Thurse posted in the "Mindless" thread is similar, so I'm going to write it up and post it soon.  (I've got to head out to a client for a bit, so I can't do it now.)

I am not adverse to changing/revamping the Unstoppable rule, I'm not even adverse to Nids being affected by BMs, I just want something that reflects the alien nature of the Tyranids and the fact that they don't "duck and cover" when things get hairy.  *laugh*

Stay tuned!

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:08 pm 
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Special Rule - Relentless

As long as they are under the control of the Hive Mind, lesser Tyranid creatures, quite literally, do not know the meaning of fear and will relentlessly sell their lives to secure the goals of the greater Hive Mind. This is not due to any bravery or training of the creatures making up the swarm, but reflects the iron will of the Hive Mind transmitted though psychic links to these creatures. ?Disruption of these psychic links is the only thing that can slow down the unrelenting tide of Tyranids.

Tyranid formations receive and suffer from Blast markers as normal for being shot at or taking casualties, but ignore their presence for the purposes of suppression. ?In addition, a Tyranid swarm that has as many Blast markers as units removes those Blast markers and becomes mindless (see Mindless) until the start of the next turn; its link to the Hive Mind has been severed and it is unable to perform its functions. ?Tyranid swarms that lose an assault are treated in the same fashion, suffering "hack down" hits and making withdrawal moves as normal, also becoming mindless until the start of the next turn. ?(It is advised you mark such swarms appropriately.)

The Hive Mind is quick to re-establish Its hold over Its lesser creatures and Tyranid swarms automatically remove all Blast markers in the End Phase of each turn.

Special Rule - Mindless

The hordes of creatures that make up a Tyranid swarm are not a mass of individuals, but are merely cogs in a great biological machine. ?Even the higher order creatures like Hive Tyrants and Tyranid Warriors are more resonators of the Hive Mind's will than actual leaders; without the Hive Mind's guidance they lack the foresight and initiative that a Junior Office cut off from his Command might utilize when battlefield conditions change. ?As well, some Tyranid creatures have no mind at all, they merely undertake purely instinctive behaviours or undirected activity as the devour all that comes near them.

Such creatures are considered mindless. ?A swarm containing mindless creatures may only take Hold actions, they are unable to perform more intricate battlefield activities. ?Additionally, mindless creatures may neither control nor contest battlefield objectives, they can be quickly cut down by enemy forces without resistance since they have no direction. ?A swarm containing mindless creatures is always considered to have more Blast markers than any formation that assaults them, they do not have the capacity for well organized defence.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:36 pm 
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Sounds cool to me conceptually.  Editorially, I might change some phrasing.  The BM penalty for Mindless seems especially harsh since it will apply to "unbroken" formations as well.  It would probably be better to separate Mindless from the "Tyranid broken" concept.

Maybe something like this for the second paragraph...
Tyranid formations receive and suffer from Blast markers as normal for being shot at or taking casualties, but ignore their presence for the purposes of suppression.  Tyranid formations do not become broken in the same manner as other races.  A Tyranid formation that would become broken by blast markers or losing assault instead becomes Mindless (see Mindless) until the start of the next turn.  Its link to the Hive Mind has been severed and it is unable to perform its functions.  For the remainder of the turn the formation counts as having as many Blast Markers as units in the formation, similar to a broken formation in any other army.


Then cut all the BM refs in Mindless.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:39 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jun. 12 2007,17:36)
QUOTE
The BM penalty for Mindless seems especially harsh since it will apply to "unbroken" formations as well. ?

A request for gentleness towards the Tyranids?  Have you been assimilated, Neal?   :D

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thurse
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:42 pm 
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Hi again!

Some questions before answering, as I don't know if I misunderstood or not.


1) Should a swarm get a withdraw move when it become mindless?

2) Nids now have modifiers for having BM?
? ? ? - in assault resolution?
? ? ? - for activating?
? ? ? - for spawning?

3)Can mindless formations support assaults?


EDIT : agree with Neal on that point.

This is the way to go IMHO, with some adjustment!
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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:48 pm 
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(thurse @ Jun. 12 2007,17:42)
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1) Should a swarm get a withdraw move when it become mindless?

Hmmm... they aren't broken, they're "directionless", I think giving them a withdrawal move might be too good. ?They just have to "sit and spin" as they don't know what to do. ?It means they still sit on an objective, sure, but they don't claim/contest it anymore.

2) Nids now have modifiers for having BM?
? ? ? - in assault resolution?
Yes.

? ? ? - for activating?Yes.

? ? ? - for spawning?How would Blast markers affect spawning? ?BMs don't affect Rally rolls, which are used as a Spawn check and Tyrand BMs will be removed immediately anyway.

3)Can mindless formations support assaults?Yes, I would think this was "instincts" kicking in, but if it's a problem, then that can be examined.

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Zzzap
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:56 pm 
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(thurse @ Jun. 12 2007,17:42)
QUOTE
1) Should a swarm get a withdraw move when it become mindless?

2) Nids now have modifiers for having BM?
      - in assault resolution?
      - for activating?
      - for spawning?

3)Can mindless formations support assaults?

OK, I want to be sure I understand these questions also.

Wow, this just might work. It is a cool concept, keeping the Tyranids seeming fluff wise alien, but game wise not too foreign a concept.

Chroma, this is really nice I think. It deserves playtesting again. Guess those Nids will have to come back out of the drawer.

After testing it is likely that some of the units might need a boost but I think it will be much easier to balance under this rule.

And Neal did sound a little like he is in danger of being assimilated.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:58 pm 
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No withdrawing move? Be prepared to see entire swarms to be hacked down after a lost assault because they can't move 15cm away from enemies.

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Zzzap
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:59 pm 
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(Chroma @ Jun. 12 2007,17:48)
QUOTE
3)Can mindless formations support assaults?
Yes, I would think this was "instincts" kicking in, but if it's a problem, then that can be examined.

This is worth playtesting before making any final decisions. I would be willing to test them supporting but it is quite possible it could be a problem. Too early to tell.

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Zzzap
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:01 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Jun. 12 2007,17:58)
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No withdrawing move? Be prepared to see entire swarms to be hacked down after a lost assault because they can't move 15cm away from enemies.

Good point

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Zzzap
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:09 pm 
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Another question:

1. If a unit is fired upon after becoming mindless will it take casualties in the same way as a broken unit would?

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Dave
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:09 pm 
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I'm trying to wrap my head around this.  It seems to me that Mindless allows Tyranids to ignore some but not all of the effects of being/becoming broken.

Mindless units do not have to make a withdraw move, are not automatically destroyed when assaulted, get saves as normal when suffering extra BMs and may perform a hold action.  Correct?  Am I missing something?  Otherwise they are considered broken.

I think that's pretty good Chroma.  I would suggest that they not be able to support assaults as a mindless unit itself is not being assaulted.

Additionally, any reason why you choose to remove all BMs without a role?  I think a rally roll to remove half would be better.  For one, the hive mind might be occupied else where and couldn't devote its full attention to making the lesser creatures straighten up and behave.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:12 pm 
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(Hena @ Jun. 12 2007,18:02)
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With those perhaps... And I'd call that relentless unstoppable as that is what it is. No point in changing names.

My main reason for changing the name is to drop all the baggage and assumptions that come with "Unstoppable"; a fresh start, as it were.

I think Nids going to 1+ initiative is something that will need careful consideration, but I do tend towards it if they can get Blast markers.

As to the assault resolution effects, I've definitely heard complaints that Tyranids "almost always have +2 going in" as a problem. ?With these changes is that still an issue?

I *like* that mindless swarms/creatures can still support. ?The psychic "overspill" from nearby Synapse might spur them on a bit.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion] Unstoppable alternative: Relentless
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:15 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Jun. 12 2007,17:58)
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No withdrawing move? Be prepared to see entire swarms to be hacked down after a lost assault because they can't move 15cm away from enemies.

They *can* withdraw from lost assaults, that's already in the rule.  They *don't* get a free move if "made mindless" by shooting... that's something I definitely want to avoid.

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