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Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes
Morg
 Post subject: Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:53 pm 
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Our major problem is: GT games are mostly about capturing objectives and the Unstoppable rule makes that too easy at the moment.

Possible fixes I can see:
- remove Unstoppable rule in favor for other already existing rules
- introduce fixes for objective denial (retreat from shooting)
- make Tyranids more vulnerable/frail, e.g. by changing Regeneration to spawn at the players table edge thus creating waves
- change objectives for Tyranids to make it harder to win for them (and maybe easier for the enemy)

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Zzzap
 Post subject: Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:57 am 
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(Hena @ Jun. 11 2007,17:25)
QUOTE
I'll reiterate my total opposition of BMs to Tyranids. What I could accept is that Nids break in failed assault. That allows them to be pushed out of objective by assaults, but not firing. But the point of Tyranids is to be completely different from the rest and changing that much Unstoppable makes them complete crap. Then I'd rather play Orks who can fire very efficiently and still beat nids in CC as well...

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more.

Changing Unstoppable would not make Tyranid complete crap. Under the current Unstoppable rule they are not much fun. What fun is it to be "Unstoppable"? Certainly no fun for the opponent.

I really love my Tyranid army and want it to be balanced. Under the current rules I am ashamed to play an opponent with an Unstoppable virtually unbeatable army.

By definition if a formation can be broken (as in your failed assault comment) then it would have BM equal to the number of units in the formation. Some mechanism for removing BM's can be worked into the solution so that Tyranids keep roaring back making them seem unstoppable and alien without breaking the game mechanics.

I believe that is what we are trying to do.

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Hojyn
 Post subject: Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:32 am 
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I agree with Hena: I'm opposed to giving BMs to Tyranids as well.

If Tyranids lose that assault bonus and can be broken by firing, you end up with an army that's somewhat like Orks, only it can't shoot as well and don't have transports. So what's the point?


Exactly.

The Unstoppable rule defines the Tyranid army more than any other rule. Changing it means changing units profiles, units costs, the army list, etc. because it would affect single unit in the list.

Plus, I don't think it's needed: let's try Chroma's last set of modifications first. Now that Tyranids a) have a max number of units per swarm, b) can only Hold after a failed assault and c) no longer ignore coherency when engaging, I think they will be a lot less "broken".

If this is still not enough, then yes, getting rid of the Unstoppable rule will be necessary, but let's give it one last chance. ?:)
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Reaver
 Post subject: Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:30 am 
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I'm still concerned that the list has two pages of special rules just for Nids. And I know Hena and others are totally against BMs for Nids, but I'm just as fervent the other way.
I really think ATSKNF combined with Leader for all Synapse units would work. Maybe even giving formations containing Synapse 1+ initiative.

Might be a good idea to have a poll and see where people stand on Unstoppable?
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Reaver
 Post subject: Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:28 pm 
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The Chaos lists have around 1200 words of special rules, excluding examples of play. The Nid list has over 2000 words, without examples. So not far off twice as much.
I appreciate you've put a lot of time and effort into this list, and I'm really not trying to get into an argument here. I'm simply saying that Unstoppable seems to alter the E:A rules too much to be workable. I understand others may disagree, and I'm just giving my opinion.
And as I said in my previous post, I think ATSKNF combined with Leader for Synapse creatures would work well. Or maybe even something a bit more extreme; allow Nids not to receive BMs for the death of non-synapse units. Like Grots in the Ork list, but obviously a lot more effective for Nids.
I do think that it would be worth looking at some of theses alternatives, if only to allow the Nid list to play in a way most E:A players would be familiar with.
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Reaver

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:15 pm 
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(Hojyn @ Jun. 12 2007,05:32)
QUOTE
If Tyranids lose that assault bonus and can be broken by firing, you end up with an army that's somewhat like Orks, only it can't shoot as well and don't have transports. So what's the point?


Exactly.

Statements like this demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the character of the Nid list.

Nids won't become like orks.  Nids already ARE an Ork infantry horde army.

Maybe people have become so caught up in Supastompa Mobz, Zzap Brigades, massed Landas and all that fancy stuff to recall, but Ork hordes are quite viable as an army.  Ork infantry hordes don't have transports because it dilutes the focus and reduces the numbers it requires to be effective.  Ork infantry hordes don't have ranged fire to speak of because they must press forward using Double Moves.

The only way Nids are different than an Ork infantry horde is that they are better in every single way.  Even without considering Unstoppable, they are cheaper, have dramatically better FF and regenerate.

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Zzzap
 Post subject: Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:25 pm 
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(Reaver @ Jun. 12 2007,13:28)
QUOTE
The Chaos lists have around 1200 words of special rules, excluding examples of play. The Nid list has over 2000 words, without examples. So not far off twice as much.

I do think that it would be worth looking at some of theses alternatives, if only to allow the Nid list to play in a way most E:A players would be familiar with.
Regards,
Reaver

Well said.

I agree totally. Looking at alternatives would be good for the hobby in general. If the list played more familiar to other E:A players it would be a better simpler list one that would gain more acceptance from players other than the Tyranid Unstoppable loyalists.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:31 pm 
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(Hena @ Jun. 12 2007,17:49)
QUOTE
I disagree that nids should be like orks.

You are confusing my statements about how things are with how things are supposed to be.

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