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[BatRep] Steel Legion vs Tyranids
nealhunt
 Post subject: [BatRep] Steel Legion vs Tyranids
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:59 pm 
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How can you do this?


You can do it because, as you noted, bunkers are just a terrain piece.  As long as the terrain is not impassable to the units, you can move into base contact.  Having the bunker "full" is no different than a building physically filled with enemy models.  You can still move into base contact with them.  Just move the stands up as if they would more or less touch.

Literal physical positioning may be an issue due to the shapes of the models.  That is not a restriction any more than a top-heavy titan tipping over on an angled surface means it's impassable or trees glued too close make woods impassable.  Just explain it to your opponent and get it as close as possible.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [BatRep] Steel Legion vs Tyranids
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:14 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jun. 06 2007,13:59)
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You can do it because, as you noted, bunkers are just a terrain piece. ?As long as the terrain is not impassable to the units, you can move into base contact. ?Having the bunker "full" is no different than a building physically filled with enemy models. ?You can still move into base contact with them. ?Just move the stands up as if they would more or less touch.

I suppose it's because bunkers actually have a "capacity" of three units in the rules tha led us to believe you couldn't get into "full" ones.

Buildings, since they don't have a limit, other than actual space, were never an issue.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [BatRep] Steel Legion vs Tyranids
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:59 pm 
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Against an army with larger formations, I don't like placing the T-n-H objectives to close together as one formation can control/contest both of them on occasion? I don't like making it easier for my opponent!  *laugh*


I think this is fundamentally wrong for Nids.  You need the objectives close together.  You have large formations.  A large swarm can take multiple objectives, lose an assault and still hold the objectives if you place your broods correctly.  The enemy cannot do that.  One lost assault and it's all over for them.

It does make it easier for the opponent but it benefits the Nids even more.

Lesser Node 2 tries to sprout near the Imperial Blitz but hits its head on a buried gas main and dies.

At the risk of just being a jerk... stop teleporting into dangerous terrain.  It's a bad idea.  Blocking LoS is better than a cover mod.  If you teleport into the terrain, the enemy can see you.  Teleport behind the terrain.  That forces the enemy to take a dramatically different physical position in order to gain LoS.

Turn 3 you could have teleported the blitz node into the road outside the ruins out of LoS, and used the Lictors to fence out the Shadowswords.  You now have the Blitz unless IG take extraordinary measures.  The Node was still close enough to get the Blitz and the Shadowswords couldn't have fired on it, no matter what they did.  The Baneblades wouldn't have movement to get LoS.  That would leave only the Russ company that could contest or fire at the node and they would have probably needed to double move to do so.  

This would have accomplished the same thing with regard to forcing the Russ to move as you did by dropping the Lictors directly on them.  Also, since Nodes are the only formations Shadowswords can reasonably threaten (due to their limited number of shots), it largely neutralizes them by denying them a real target.

The IG would have to either give up at least one objective or string out the Russ formation, rendering them vulnerable to assault by either the Lictors and/or Swarm 1.

The assault swarm 1 could probably take the objective in the cathedral, so there was no need to put the Node there.  That would leave you 2 nodes to go elsewhere.  You could either contest both the objectives at the "tan" end of the board, or double up on the T&H the nids need.  I would probably have gone for both on the Nid T&H to try to guarantee 2 goals, but splitting them up would be workable, too.  Let's say you split them up.  Now, look at the situation at the beginning of the turn:

Nids hold both Blitz objectives.  The swarm on the Nid side is impossible to remove.  Even using both infantry formations the chances of being able to grind down that swarm in cover and partially out of LoS to the point it can't contest the Blitz is miniscule.  Moreover, if they don't divert one of them, you have the T&H objective you need to win.  The only formation that can threaten the Nid hold on the other blitz is the Russ, unless the SHT's had range to March over and contest.

Nids hold one of their T&H with a node and threaten the other.  They hold one of the IG T&H.

Nids have 4 out of 6 objectives and threaten a 5th.  IG cannot win with 2 objective goals and TSNP is impossible.  The only chance they have of winning is BTS and T&H, but in order to get the T&H, they have to divert too much firepower to realistically achieve BTS.  That only leaves stopping the Nids from winning.  In order to do that, they have to take long moves with most of their formations, reducing firepower and for the most part putting them in vulnerable positions.

With that position, losing strategy is okay.  Winning strategy and assaulting the Russ company like actually happened probably wins the game.  You have both T&H and the blitz, and can likely string out the swarm assaulting the Russ far enough to prevent even the SHT march to contest the Blitz.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [BatRep] Steel Legion vs Tyranids
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:34 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jun. 06 2007,14:59)
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I think this is fundamentally wrong for Nids. ?You need the objectives close together. ?You have large formations. ?A large swarm can take multiple objectives, lose an assault and still hold the objectives if you place your broods correctly. ?The enemy cannot do that. ?One lost assault and it's all over for them.

I assume you mean Synapse here, as Brood creatures can't hold/contest objectives. ?

With T-n-H objectives close together, I find the enemy now knows where you're going to be going and can try to "lie in wait". ?Those Mech Co/HQs can through out a lot of firepower and a lot of firefight if they decide to hit you, and if the enemy knows where you're going to be, they can set up some nasty support with them as well, I guess that's my rational for a wider split on placing T-n-H objectives as it gives the enemy a place to concentrate.

I will try "clustering" the objectives in my next Tyranid game.

At the risk of just being a jerk... stop teleporting into dangerous terrain. ?It's a bad idea. ?Blocking LoS is better than a cover mod. ?If you teleport into the terrain, the enemy can see you. ?Teleport behind the terrain. ?That forces the enemy to take a dramatically different physical position in order to gain LoS.


Yeah, I'm starting to reconsider that for the Nodes. ?I don't usually play with so many, so it hasn't been *that* much of a problem, but the odds have caught up to me.

Turn 3 you could have teleported the blitz node into the road outside the ruins out of LoS,
Well, out in the open, the aircraft could still try and take it out, like they did the other Node that was out in the open.

This would have accomplished the same thing with regard to forcing the Russ to move as you did by dropping the Lictors directly on them. ?Also, since Nodes are the only formations Shadowswords can reasonably threaten (due to their limited number of shots), it largely neutralizes them by denying them a real target.

Well, they can blast the hell out of the Lictors as well. ?*laugh*

I really wish one could "replay" games, just to try out different approaches/choices. ?I definitely want to face that Mechanized Guard army again to see how different terrain/positioning will make a difference.


Just to let you know Neal, I appreciate your analysis, criticism, and advice! ?Keep it coming and I promise you I will not be offended by your honesty!

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [BatRep] Steel Legion vs Tyranids
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:49 pm 
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I had forgotten about the aircraft.  Of course, you're right on that point.  Teleporting 2 nodes onto the Blitz would have been better in that case.  The tan side of the board would still be pretty well defended without a second node.

I assume you mean Synapse here, as Brood creatures can't hold/contest objectives.


No, I mean broods.  It's the brood placement that prevents a single assault from overrunning a position and pushing the synapse off the objectives.  As an example, the blitz objective:

Blitz - 10cm - synapse - 15cm - |front edge of the broods|

Nids hold the objective.  The enemy has to assault the front edge of the brood.  Assuming they reach base contact, they are still 25cm from the objective.  Nids use Withdraw move to pull back to the minimum 15cm from the new position.  Withdraw comes before consolidate, so the front edge of the swarm is still 10cm beyond the objective.

Blitz - 5cm - Synapse - 5cm - |front edge of the broods| - 15cm |front edge of enemy|

After consolidate, the attackers can only make it to 20cm.  Nids still have the objective and the enemy doesn't contest.

Importantly, from every direction except directly toward the assaulting formation, the Nid ZoC can still project 15+cm from the objective.  Even directly towards the assaulting formation it's going to be just shy of 15cm.

It requires another formation to move up into the relatively narrow alley created by the assault just to contest.  Even a second successful assault probably won't capture the objective because there will probably be room for the Nids to withdraw out of 15cm of the assaulters, but still contest.

That's all assuming the enemy can CC.  Firefight is obviously much, much worse at pushing the Nids back.

Unless the enemy can pour enough ranged fire or get massive hackdown hits on the Nids to blow them off the objective , it takes 3 unopposed formations to capture an objective from well-positioned Nids.  If the swarm does activate they can push up to the ZoC limit rather than the 15cm withdraw distance even if an outright counter assault is not possible.   That means more likely 4 enemy formations.

This is why I keep saying that the activation advantage against Nids isn't very effective if they have big swarms.  Stalling doesn't work.  Nids have 2 turns to kill things before they need to run for objectives, but they simply don't have to kill very much.  They just have to get into position and hold on.

===

BTW, I was working on our batrep from last weekend when the front edge of a thunderstorm zapped the power.  I lost a lot of typing and a bunch of edited pics.  Plus, I obviously wasn't going to fire the computer back up and risk it being fried.  I'll try to recreate the work and get the batrep posted tonight.

Then you can return the favor by tearing my tactics up and complaining bitterly about how horrible the Ork commander played...  :D

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Chroma
 Post subject: [BatRep] Steel Legion vs Tyranids
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:02 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jun. 06 2007,16:49)
QUOTE
BTW, I was working on our batrep from last weekend when the front edge of a thunderstorm zapped the power. ?I lost a lot of typing and a bunch of edited pics. ?Plus, I obviously wasn't going to fire the computer back up and risk it being fried. ?I'll try to recreate the work and get the batrep posted tonight.

*OUCH*  The agony of "delete"... is your compy okay?

Then you can return the favor by tearing my tactics up and complaining bitterly about how horrible the Ork commander played... ?:D

Ah, no fair giving a spoiler like that!  *laugh*
test

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