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[Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus

 Post subject: [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 11:08 pm 
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(zombocom @ May 02 2007,22:53)
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Is that really neccesary in a list with an overabundance of choices already?

Er... what do you see as an "overabundance of choices" in the list?

In the current list the only "choices" to be made for weapon load-outs are the Carnifex and the Hierodules.

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 Post subject: [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 11:32 pm 
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(Hena @ May 02 2007,12:43)
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(Evil and Chaos @ May 02 2007,15:28)
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I know Zoanthrope AA has been tested, and is relatively balanced.

But it's not representative of the Tyranid race, from the universe of Warhammer 40,000...

It's representative of some other alien race, who happen to have a lot in common with the Tyranids, but which have creatures called Zoanthropes which are extremely dissimilar to those in every other iteration of the 40k universe.

S'no whim.

Ok, when working with a list that should be usable there are some things that one should not do. Decide something isn't right that works and replace it with completely untested thingamajig that should exists, but for which you made up the stats without much trying them in the game.

In this list the AA as it is works in a game. So I wouldn't replace it with something that may be right in the fluff if that isn't tested with some thought. When it will be replaced, we should have tested a set of profiles to some degree and decided that this approach works (in general) and is going to be used. Then replace it and tune to it to be balanced. But until you have something concrete that can be said that this is it, you don't do it.

We HAVE been testing gargoyles for some time now. Both Chroma and I at least used a similar version and it works ok (though it is fairly weak).  AA Zoanthropes have been comprehensively dismissed by argument and by popular opinion. As of now none of the meiotic spore options is yet adequate IMO -  but testing of meiotic spore ideas should be continued of course.

If you haven't tested ideas and would rather do your own thing then do so. However, for purposes of serous list development  please don't imply ideas are 'completely untested'  when other people have been testing them for some time and reporting success.  Why not actually try them so you can report how much they suck?  :;):

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 Post subject: [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 12:42 am 
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(Chroma @ May 02 2007,23:08)
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(zombocom @ May 02 2007,22:53)
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Is that really neccesary in a list with an overabundance of choices already?

Er... what do you see as an "overabundance of choices" in the list?

In the current list the only "choices" to be made for weapon load-outs are the Carnifex and the Hierodules.

Perhaps an overabundance of options would have been a better phrasing, or even just an overabundance of different unit types.

The tyranid list has a huge range of different units, and so giving them different weapon options just makes for more variation. Epic list are supposed to be much more limited in terms of number of options.

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 Post subject: [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:00 am 
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(zombocom @ May 03 2007,00:42)
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The tyranid list has a huge range of different units, and so giving them different weapon options just makes for more variation. Epic list are supposed to be much more limited in terms of number of options.

Ah, I think I get what you're saying, but, compared to other lists, Tyranids have almost the same number of different unit types; more than Marines, slightly more that Imperial Guard, a bit less than Orks, and *far* less than Eldar, all of which have a few units with "options", so I don't think we're that out of line.

I believe the point with weapon options on the Bio-Titans is that, in the "old days" they did have a small variety of weapons, not unlike Gargants and Titans, so some variablility is possible, though nothing extreme like I suggested earlier with my mutable Bio-Titans rules.

A few options shouldn't hurt.

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 Post subject: [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:07 am 
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(Hena @ May 03 2007,03:15)
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(zombocom @ May 03 2007,02:42)
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The tyranid list has a huge range of different units, and so giving them different weapon options just makes for more variation. Epic list are supposed to be much more limited in terms of number of options.

In general I'd agree with you. Optional stuff in Epic is a bad idea. However we are talking about titans here and in those I can see it happening. Also this is not that great optionality, but something similar to Marine Dreadnought.

But in general optionality is not a good thing. Currently our only optionality is the wings for Tyrant and Warriors. And I'm hoping that Warriors would lose that :).

I'd like to see tyrants lose the wings as well.

Also I agree multiple options in the tourni lists are not a good thing, but with the exception of titan weapon loadouts! :D

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 Post subject: [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:24 pm 
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Blimey - a couple of days at a conference and all this kicks off!

Going back through the suggestions thus far..

1. Combined Carnifex - YES

2. Trygon to 25cm, no infiltrate and 100 points - YES.

3. Removal of flying Warriors - YES

4. BTS and WE synapse. 1/2 DC (round up) instead of 1 or full DC - YES

5. NEXUS group and spawning - YES - personally I don't see the extra wording as an issue - we can all read can't we?

6. Dominatrix and Supreme Commander - unlike Hena I don't see having a 0-1 limit as a problem.

7. Biovore. Could be changed to 30cm range and indirect fire. Would represent fluff a little better-  YES

8. And autokill critical to Hierodules section  - YES

9. The Regen to be round down or removed from the Brood WEs completely. Either is fine for me - NO - personally I like it as it is.

10. Synapse range should be worded to prevent the moving out of 15cm - has anyone actually had this come up as an issue in a battle? Basically the way our group plays it is that you simply can't leave broods outside of synapse range - this means that sometimes the swarm has to be jiggled about a bit but its never felt broken.

11. Vituperator should have FF4+ - probably although until I get round to scratchbuilding one I am unlikely to playtest.

12. AA, Gargoyles and spores. In terms of getting a new current list to use I think Hena has a point here - although there is playtesting going on - none of it appears to have been conclusive. It really does need our champion to steer this one to a conclusion - post some stats and ask for reports. Currently everyone is playing what they feel is the right thing so we have too many variations on a theme to add anything to a new usable list. Just my opinion there!

13. Biotitans weapons - I liked the biomorphs so would be in favour of a little choice in weaponry.

14. Zoanthropes with AP4 30cm, 15cm MW5+ FF, Armour 5, no AA. Thing is I like these stats but in light of my commens above (12.) I can't really support these at this time.

By the way - I am writing up a new batrep of a battle I fought a couple of weeks ago against Orkybob's Orks. I'll post it tomorrow with piccies. The piccies were taken on Wako's mobile phone so the quality is shall we say, variable!

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 Post subject: [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:25 pm 
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Hi!

I agree with all the propositions made by Hena. I'm in favor of removeing regen to all spawnable war engines. List-wise, the simplest way to do that is to add a skill called regeneration and put it on the bio-titans.

Then let's put that in a list, that will be IMHO balanced and stable. The ideal thing would be to have a PDF and to put it on SG...


Then, we could discuss on nid AA. But it will unbalance the list for some time because it adds 2 new units :
- spores
- new zoanthrope with a completly new role.

cheers


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 Post subject: [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 10:57 pm 
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(Hena @ May 03 2007,18:31)
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(Markconz @ May 03 2007,08:07)
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I'd like to see tyrants lose the wings as well.

I can live with winged Tyrant. Mainly as it doesn't have the unbalancing effect of winged warriors. But I'm sure E&C opposes on grounds that either both should fly or neither :D.

Pretty much.

They're about equal in conversion-difficulty.

It just seems odd to me that we should have modular choices available for Hive Tyrants, but not for any of the other Synapse creatures.


In fact, I think it's the only modular choice in the whole armylist?

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 Post subject: [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 9:14 am 
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I found that the tyrant was easier to conbert to have wings than the warriors were.

I think that they should both stay.  They allow the vanhuard gargoyle to be played without wasting an expensive WE to mother them along.  Harridans are much more useful for hunting down rear area units and detroying them.

M Harridan rarely take any brood creatures with them, and only spawn if it can help arguement another swarms spawning.

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 Post subject: [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 12:10 pm 
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(Hena @ May 05 2007,10:49)
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(Lightbringer @ May 03 2007,15:24)
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10. Synapse range should be worded to prevent the moving out of 15cm - has anyone actually had this come up as an issue in a battle? Basically the way our group plays it is that you simply can't leave broods outside of synapse range - this means that sometimes the swarm has to be jiggled about a bit but its never felt broken.

I think that someone hit this issue in a game (I remember someone asking about this, but can't remember who it was). For me it has always been more academic case, but which should be included in the rules none the less.

Ok - when you say not moving out of 15cm, are you even including engages where your hormagaunts race ahead of the synapse and out of 15cm, before moving back into synapse at the end of the engage? Cos I do that all the time...  ???  :D

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 Post subject: [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:32 pm 
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Hey, i havent read through most of the comments so i dont know if this has been covered. synapse groups. hive tyrant spawn is D3. hive tyrant and 2 warriors is D3+2. now if you lose one or both i think you should lose the +1/2.
just seems to make sense to me! lmao lose the stands, lose the bonus.
Just a though.


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