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Tyranid v7.3.1
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:38 am 
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Uh huh.

That's a rubbish reason. :)

IMHO they should lose 6+ armour, painful as that'll be to my flying horde.




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:42 am 
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I'd agree with E&C. For some units like the Land Speeders it makes sense that their speed makes up a lot of their survivability (They're fast, relatively small and highly maneuverable being antigrav units). Gargoyles don't strike me as being that fast or maneuverable... Plus they really don't need the extra saving throw, do they?
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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:58 am 
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If it makes you guys feel any better I argued same as you guys just a couple of weeks ago :)

However, according to the background gargoyles are just as fast and manoueverable as antigrav speeders. See this thread about halfway down where I  discuss flying speeds of unladen swallows and related issues if you want to get into discussions about the feasibility of bio-engineered imaginary space dinosaurs... :p

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....7;st=45

In short it is all very subjective and when the rules and background support one alternative over another, then just go with it. Gargoyles 'may not strike you' as being that fast or maneuverable but personal opinions count for little.  That position is not supported by the background, nor IMO does it really have any good basis in real world terms if you really want to go there.

Also - it is only  6+. It doesn't make much difference.  :D

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:22 am 
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However, according to the background gargoyles are just as fast and manoueverable as antigrav speeders.


Come now, that's a single fluff piece of dubious quality (And i don't think the creatures in it are named as Gargoyles anyway). Plus Marine bikers are just as fast too. :)

The 40k rules have charging Hormagaunts potentially moving faster in a turn (by a good margin) than Gargoyles.

And they're certainly a lot less aerodynamic than swallows. :)

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:48 am 
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It just seems weird to me is all. I'd account the armor save of the Land Speeder up to a combination of speed and relatively small size. It's only modestly larger then the 2 marines riding it usually, moves blazing fast and tends to dodge rather unpredictably. The Gargoyles are a unit of 5 of them and can't possibly be as maneuverable as an antigrav vehicle (Pulling into straight rises and dives near instantly without losing forward momentum, for instance, is physically impossible for a winged aircraft but should be easy if you can generate anti-gravity). Capable of running down Eldar Jetbikes? Sure. Able to avoid being gunned down by Heavy Bolter fire? I doubt it.

And yes, 6+ armor isn't much. It just seems really weird to me. And seems, at least to me, to add to the whole 'best common brood' feel of them. They're fast, good firefight, 6+ saves isn't great but it'll save one or two in the formation a turn, I'd expect, and it's still 17% more likely to survive a hit then a gaunt is.
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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:46 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 17 2007,00:22)
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The 40k rules have charging Hormagaunts potentially moving faster in a turn (by a good margin) than Gargoyles.

How?  ???  I use to use both regularly, and gargoyles were considerably faster in game because they move fast even when they are not charging. For ref.

Gargoyles = 12 + D6 fleet, plus charge of 6 = 24"
Hormis = 6 +D6 fleet, plus charge of 12 = 24"

How do you play them??

Also, it is not just one piece of fluff (and claiming those are not gargoyles in that fluff or that it is dubious would be disingenuous IMO. So tyranids have another flapping thing with fleshborers capable of chasing a jetbike - ok lets put that in the list and call it a gogoyle...? What makes the first piece of fluff in the 40k Tyranid codex 'dubious' - your opinon?). Ragnarok mentioned another piece of fluff where gargoyles chase down a mag-train moving at 200kmhr. In previous editions of epic they could intercept eldar aircraft (let alone jetbikes)!

I would give up beating the dead horse of 'commonsense' notions of what is possible, what is aerodynamic etc. This could be endlessly extended to almost everything in 40k universe (like tyranids in general, eldar dressing in clown suits, tanks that can't fire on the move - the list is endless!!  :p ).  Like I said you want to do that maybe develop Dirtside or similar, not Epic  :;):  

If it 'bugs' you that much just remember birds can fly at hundred km/hr. Claiming that bioengineered weapons can't even be as good as real animals doesn't wash in my opinion. Sounds kinda like this guy:

Hudson: What do you mean "THEY cut the power"? How could they cut the power, man? They're animals!  


Yes it's impossible, just like men flying was, just like faster than sound flight was, just like landing on the moon was...
(Bio)Technology - get over it  :;):

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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:59 am 
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(Ilushia @ Mar. 17 2007,00:48)
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And yes, 6+ armor isn't much. It just seems really weird to me.

Yes I agree with both of you on that, but then tyranids are weird...  :)

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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:20 am 
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Back on topic with the French feedback (merci!  :))

Here's the ones I agree with (others I either disagree with or don't feel strongly about):


*** Winged Warriors are perceived as unbalancing because a) they make Harridan and Vituperator semi-obsolete by being able to "hide" among dozens of Gargoyles and b) they make Gargoyles (already considered the best common brood) even more attractive. As much as the idea sounds cool, they should be erased from the list.

Tyranid Warriors are too slow, they slow their swarms with their 15 cm move. 20 cm move would probably be better (again, I half agree... not too sure though, because it would make swarms much faster on a March action).
I half agree with this...

*** Biovores are not powerful enough. They could use a boost.
I don't understand why they are not 30cm indirect - they are a mortar not a direct fire weapon...

*** Broodlord should go. It's a nice idea, but frankly it does not really belong to the Epic scale. Plus it gives Tyranids access to Inspiring, and this may not be a good thing.

*** Zoanthropes could use a boost, particularly if they lose their AA ability.

*** Invulnerable Save for the Dominatrix !  :)

*** Only one Carnifex, please. Why are there 2 profiles anyway when there's only 1 model ?

*** Gargoyles are too powerful when compared to the other common brood creatures, mainly because they allow the Tyranid army to do FF en masse. Give them Brood (2) ?
Definitely if AA proposals actually make it to final version.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:08 pm 
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25cm Indirect?

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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:27 pm 
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(Hena @ Mar. 17 2007,05:13)
QUOTE
I'm not happy about Biovores indirect. That would give them 60cm range and IMO it's not good thing. I'd prefer to make other mods (such as brood(2)).

What do you see as unbalancing about 60cm range? I thought it might be ok since they are not BP? If it is unbalancing how about just reducing the to hit number?

E&C's 25cm is another possibility... though it is a non-standard range band which is in theory a bad thing (though I'm not sure why exactly...   :) ) Does anything else in the game have a range that is not some multiple of 15cm?

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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid v7.3.1
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:30 pm 
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(Hena @ Mar. 17 2007,12:58)
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(Markconz @ Mar. 17 2007,13:27)
QUOTE
What do you see as unbalancing about 60cm range? I thought it might be ok since they are not BP? If it is unbalancing how about just reducing the to hit number?

Not unbalancing. But mainly as I really don't want long range fire support (in addition to Dactylis). So I see it as bad side of nids and I wouldn't want to push that. I'd rather do the balancing other way than allow longer range.


Ah but it wouldn't be in addition to - it would be in place of, because they both come out of the same points allowance. I agree with you in that I don't want long range fire support heavy armies either, but giving the biovore indirect 30cm, would be a direct counter to the 'long range fire support' type army.

It means less points to spend on deady dactylis which actually kill things with barrages, in favour of pre-assault light harassing fire, which will put down a few useful blast markers, but probably not kill much (provided their to hit number is reduced). Ie it is something far more in tune with the close combat feel of the army than just spending those points on dactylis as I would now.

Also it just feels completely wrong to make the biovore direct fire when they simply aren't!  It requires significant justification, and I don't see good enough reasons. They shouldn't be good at shooting (as they are now), but it should be indirect.

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