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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
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(Hojyn @ Mar. 16 2007,14:57)
QUOTE Hi guys,
we French players are discussing the Tyranid list on the epic_fr forum
Is it safe to assume this is using the 7.3.1 rules?
Unstoppable
This rule is perceived as too powerful and not reflected by an appropriate points cost of the Tyranid units. Ignoring BMs breaks one of the main rules of EA and should lead to more expansive units.
I can't see in any way that this is going away or radically changing: it's the "highlight" of the Tyranid list and is one of the big things that makes them unique.
What are the specific problems people there are having with this rule? ?Are they applying hackdown hits when the Tyranids lose an assault?
Spawning
- Spawning is perceived as too easy because too automatic and some players have suggested going back to the previous system when Tyranids had to marshall in order to spawn back their units.
Hmmm? I don't understand this "automatic" argument. ?It's as "automatic" as any non-broken formation rallying in the End Phase. ?If there are any enemy units nearby it's a 1-in-3 chance of failing, and I've seen that happen a *LOT* in my games? *laugh*
Allowing Spawning with a Marshal makes it much harder to kill Synapse because it's harder to keep them "exposed" if they can regrow a bodyguard in the middle of a turn.
- The "teleportation" effect (losing a unit on the right flank only to teleport it back on the left flank) is perceived as abusive in that it gives the Tyranid army tremendous flexibility.
I think this is more of a "mindset" thing unfortunately; have you read the "Design Note" on Spawning? ?When Tyranids are attacking, the battlefield is teaming with creatures.
- The +D3 bonus if no enemy is within 30 cm is perceived as too powerful : it allows swarms to begin turn 2 almost intact AND it allows the Tyranid player to spawn Titans around its own objective in turns 3-4, thus making it unfairly hard for the opponent to grab those objectives.
Often my swarms aren't that damaged by Turn 1 attacks as it tends to be a "manoeuvre" turn, so light damage can be respawned, the flip side of that is that the enemy hasn't really suffered a lot of damage either.
Hmmm? I'd really like to see some posts of "common" army composition from the epic_fr community. ?I just don't see how damaged swarms can be respawned to full capacity so easily. ?A Lesser Node hanging around a backfield objective can gain a maximum of 9 Spawning points, so that's 1 Hierodule if they roll decently and one is in the Spawning Pool, and the Node can *still* be sniped. ?The Node *could* spawn up to 9 Lesser Broods, but could just be "sniped" out of there as well and lose the objective, or spawn 3 Carnifex if it wanted an actual bodyguard? and that's at maximum spawn points.
- War Engines spawning is perceived as too powerful and some players would prefer it if they weren't given a brood value (actually, I half agree with this one... Although I'd try increasing their brood value first).
Since these tend not to be fearless, they are subject to "hack down" hits and, in my games, tend to die quite quickly. ?For one to be spawned *back* it 1) has to have been killed already and 2) the spawning formation has to roll decently to bring it back. ?If it's more than 30cm away from the enemy to get that +D3 bonus, it's probably not getting into the fight in the next turn either.
*** Fearless should only belong to synapse creatures.
Some Tyranid creatures just don't care if they lose, and I think the Carnifex is a great example of this.
Actually, in the 7.3.1 list there is one (1) fearless Independent (Hydraphant), 2 fearless Broods (Carnifex (counting this as one) and Trygon) and 1 non-fearless Synapse (Lesser Node). ?How is this overpowering things?
*** Winged Warriors are perceived as unbalancing because a) they make Harridan and Vituperator semi-obsolete by being able to "hide" among dozens of Gargoyles and b) they make Gargoyles (already considered the best common brood) even more attractive. As much as the idea sounds cool, they should be erased from the list.
And
Tyranid Warriors are too slow, they slow their swarms with their 15 cm move. 20 cm move would probably be better (again, I half agree... not too sure though, because it would make swarms much faster on a March action).
Hmmm? taken together aren't these two kind of contradictory?
The "jump" from giving them a 20cm to a 25cm (and worse armour) suddenly makes the Harridan and Vituperator obsolete? ?I believe the "flying" Synapse war engines are to be used for totally different purposes than Warriors, flying or otherwise; Gargoyles can't protect the WE anyway, so how is that an issue?
With a 20cm move, the Tyranid Warriors can't be garrisoned, and, I've found, Tyranids can place some very powerful, and necessary, mixed swarms as garrisons and that shouldn't be eliminated.
*** Biovores are not powerful enough. They could use a boost.
Wow, the only reason I don't use more Biovores is because I don't have the models. ?For 25 points a piece and 45cm range they make an *excellent* Overwatch garrison and are good harassment/support troops.
Haruspex and Malefactor should be given a transport ability, like they had in SM/TL.
This is not going to happen, and what good would it bring to the list anyway?
*** Broodlord should go. It's a nice idea, but frankly it does not really belong to the Epic scale. Plus it gives Tyranids access to Inspiring, and this may not be a good thing.
You can have *one* Broodlord in the entire army, it still dies horribly in a firefight, and why is a "fearsome" inspiring effect looked on as so unbalancing?
*** Zoanthropes could use a boost, particularly if they lose their AA ability.
Yes, I actually agree with that. ?*laugh*
*** Invulnerable Save for the Dominatrix ! ?
And this one too. ?Though I still think it needs to be thought about.
*** Only one Carnifex, please. Why are there 2 profiles anyway when there's only 1 model ?
This is also being addressed soon.
*** Lesser Nodes are perceived as a possible source of abuse (turn 3, teleport 10-12 Lesser Nodes in order to contest/control objectives). Suggested solutions : getting rid of them entirely ; 0-2 limit on Lesser Nodes ; increased their cost to 75 points ; make them unable to contest/control objectives (I'd favor that last solution).
Has this type of army actually been seen in play or is it another "paper Trygon"? ?With that many Nodes in reserve, the opponent isn't going to have a lot of other Synapse (Well, 5 Tyrants if they want to push it!) and those Nodes are going to be sitting ducks without any protection for a full turn. ?If the enemy marches and surrounds them with zones of control, they can't spawn anything. ?If they teleport into cover, 1-in-6 is going to die from dangerous terrain. ?If the enemy assaults them, they are going to die quickly.
I'd actually like to see a "Nasty Node" army playtest if anyone is up for it! ?I just don't think it'll work.
*** Gargoyles are too powerful when compared to the other common brood creatures, mainly because they allow the Tyranid army to do FF en masse. Give them Brood (2) ?
Once the AA thing is decided, Gargoyles will be address. ?I'd *still* rather take Raveners as my primary Common Brood.
Hierodules are too powerful for their cost. Suggested solution : reducing their armour to 5+RA (not if their Brood value is raised, though).
Still being discussed.
I'd love to hear more from the epic_fr players and also see some of Tyranid army lists that have seen play there.
Thanks!
_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer
Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
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), I thought I'd give you a quick summary of the "French review". That, and poor Hena is trying to follow the discussion by translating our bad French into bad English via Google, and he'd like to be able to answer our comments here and TacCom. ?
