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[Discussion] How should Synapse-less Broods act?
The Brood swarm should be removed as soon as they lose their Synapse creature(s). 11%  11%  [ 2 ]
The Brood swarm should be removed after any "move" portion of an action, but are not required to take an action with a "move". 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
The Brood swarm should be able to act normally until Synapse Control is checked in the next turn (Engage "go-to-ground" still applies). 33%  33%  [ 6 ]
The Brood swarm must attempt a March action towards the nearest Synapse Group, with Synapse Control checked next turn. 11%  11%  [ 2 ]
The Brood swarm must take an action that includes a move towards the nearest Synapse Group, with Synapse Control checked next turn. 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Something else. (Explained below.) 33%  33%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 18

[Discussion] How should Synapse-less Broods act?
nealhunt
 Post subject: [Discussion] How should Synapse-less Broods act?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:20 pm 
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(Lightbringer @ Mar. 14 2007,13:44)
QUOTE
Hena - your proposal is simple enough but the 'at the end of evey move' thing simply encourages synapseless swarms to hold or to sustain fire, therefore not making a move and not having to make any checks.

I'm guessing this is addressed to me, but it's not correct.  Formations with units out of coherency must choose an action that allows them to move.

1.2 Formations:
Every unit in a formation must be no further than 5cm
from at least one other unit in the same formation. In
addition, all units must form a ?chain? without any gaps of
more than 5cm. Sometimes the units in a formation will
become separated due to enemy fire or assault. When this
happens, the formation must close back up again into a
legal formation when it next takes an action (see 1.6.1).


The requirements for coherency and movement are normally interpreted that the formation can choose to abandon units, but takes casualties according to 1.7.4 for units out of formation.  Even with that interpretation, though, the Nids couldn't simply stay in place and Sustain Fire because they would all be out of coherency.

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Lightbringer
 Post subject: [Discussion] How should Synapse-less Broods act?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:40 pm 
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Sorry Hena - yes the message was supposed to be directed to Nealhunt and not you.

Neal - your point only serves to reinforce my view that normal formation coherency and 'synapse control' be managed differently. We need to drop the term 'Synapse coherency' in my opinion as we end up applying rules that were designed for normal (5cm per DC) coherency to something completely different.

Losing a synapse creature may still mean that normal coherency is legal or indeed there may be a hole left in the swarm in which case the regular coherency rules would of course apply.

It only serves to muddy things if we treat synapse range as 'coherency'

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [Discussion] How should Synapse-less Broods act?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:32 pm 
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No sweat.

If you really want to be pedantic (not that we ever do that around here  :p ), the term "coherency" isn't used in the core rules at all.  It refers to being "in formation."  "Coherency" is just used because it's common wargame jargon.

The reason I favor using the same mechanic for both normal coherency and synapse range/control/coherency is simplicity.  The concepts are almost identical and the effects are similar.  It's much easier to map over an existing  mechanic to new application (like armor saves -> invulnerable save) than it is to create an entirely new mechanic out of whole cloth.  In this case, it's just applying the same mechanics to the 15cm synapse range as you would to normal 5cm "chain" coherency.

Out of normal coherency - next action must move to close up
Can't (or don't) close up - destroyed

Out of synapse range - next action must move to close up
Can't (or don't) close up - destroyed

That pretty much achieves the intended goal of the synapse range concept using the existing tools we have available under the rules.  Anyone who understands basic coherency is going to understand synapse coherency.

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Lightbringer
 Post subject: [Discussion] How should Synapse-less Broods act?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:03 pm 
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Fair comments Neal

I think the problem here is simply that I don't feel that a swarm that loses its synapse BEFORE it has activated should be treated as 'out of coherency' in any way - until the beginning of the following turn.

Your proposal is going to mean that the swarm will need to be rescued by another swarm by moving another syanpse creature within a single move of the synapseless swarm. If no synapse can get within a single move then the swarm is removed.

I'm not saying that your proposal is unplayable Neal I just think it is extremely harsh and will encourage players to keep swarms close to each other, discourage synapse led swarms from undertaking solo runs deep into enemy ranks, favour warrior led and nexus swarms over tyrant led ones etc - it basically alters the whole way you play the army.

At the very least I want to be able to move my synapseless creatures without them being carted off to the knackers yard after only moving once.....

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discussion] How should Synapse-less Broods act?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:08 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 14 2007,13:33)
QUOTE
Note that Tyranids out of Synapse range in 40k behave quite differently to Epic's mechanism.


In Epic terms, a swarm without a Synapse creature would only be able to:

- Take an inititive roll (Probably on a 5+). If passed the formation may take orders normally.

- If failed, then the formation may elect either to Lurk (Gamewise a Hold action where the Tyranid player elects to remain stationary and fire) or to Fall back (Gamewise a March action towards the nearest Synapse creature)



What do you think guys, can this simple mechanism* be integrated into Epic in order to bring greater commonality?


Brood creatures would still go to ground when out of range of Synapse at the begining of each turn as they do currently.


*Basically applying a -3 to activation rolls for swarms that don't currently have a Synapse creature, with only two order types (Hold and shoot or March towards nearest Synapse) available if activation is failed.

Noone likes my mechanism?




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Lightbringer
 Post subject: [Discussion] How should Synapse-less Broods act?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:32 pm 
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E&C - I prefer it to Nealhunts! :D

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [Discussion] How should Synapse-less Broods act?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:09 pm 
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(ragnarok @ Mar. 14 2007,14:09)
QUOTE
After rereading section T1.1.2  I'm left wondering if I have read it wrong.

By my reconning.  If a swarm that should have a synapse doesn't then as soon as it has made its first move (such as the first one of three of a march) then it will go to ground immediatly.

Similiarly, if a tyrant led brood doubles though a wood and on the first move the tyrant runs into a tree, then the entire brood goes to ground before the second move starts

Doh!  :blush:   You're right.  How embarassing that my suggestion for "how it should work" is already the way it does work.  From the 7.3.1 version Swarm rules:

Additionally, any Brood creatures that end a move more than 15cm away from their Synapse creatures are considered "outside of formation" and destroyed.


===

E&C:  Allowing swarms without synapse creatures to attack in any way just galls me.  The background is clear that they revert quickly to instinctual behavior.  Assaulting or even just firing at -1 isn't reasonable because they just don't coordinate that way.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion] How should Synapse-less Broods act?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:33 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Mar. 14 2007,18:09)
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E&C: ?Allowing swarms without synapse creatures to attack in any way just galls me. ?The background is clear that they revert quickly to instinctual behavior. ?Assaulting or even just firing at -1 isn't reasonable because they just don't coordinate that way.

Perhaps they can only take a "Hold" action then.

Move = "lurk".

Shooting = "nesting".

Regroup = "they've really gone nuts!"

The "instinctive behaviour" of various Broods is going to be quite different amongst them.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion] How should Synapse-less Broods act?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:35 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Mar. 14 2007,18:09)
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Doh! ?:blush: ? You're right. ?How embarassing that my suggestion for "how it should work" is already the way it does work. ?From the 7.3.1 version Swarm rules:

Additionally, any Brood creatures that end a move more than 15cm away from their Synapse creatures are considered "outside of formation" and destroyed.

*laugh*

That's precisely what started this little debate.  :D

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discussion] How should Synapse-less Broods act?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:46 pm 
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E&C:  Allowing swarms without synapse creatures to attack in any way just galls me.  The background is clear that they revert quickly to instinctual behavior.  Assaulting or even just firing at -1 isn't reasonable because they just don't coordinate that way.


In the 40k rules, they can operate normally if they pass a Leadership test (Normally Ld 5 or thereabouts). That includes the ability to shoot and charge into an assault. (This would be represented by the -3 to inititive penalty).

Now maybe it's innapropriate to replicate the entire mechanism, but I have no problem with a formation that's lost its synapse being able to shoot at -1 to hit.




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consectari
 Post subject: [Discussion] How should Synapse-less Broods act?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:54 pm 
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Not sure what my opinion counts for, but here it is.

If a Brood loses it's synapse before it is activated, it has received no orders for the turn (nominate a formation, declare action, action test). ?It should therefore take NO action. ?

Since Nids aren't like conventional troops, when they have no synapse control they don't have normal choices like fire or move. ?Only choice is revert to natural instincts (i.e. go to ground). ?Without the brain, they should immediately stop functioning as a cohesive force.

If a brood loses synapse, the Nid player needs to try to bring up another synapse to save that formation before they are activated, or it's gone.

Edit:
The 40K mechanic should be incorporated by allowing the brood to complete whatever action they were assigned, if their synapse is lost during their activation (say to a first strike ability).  This would reflect the concept that an entire game of 40k takes place during a single Epic engagement.




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nealhunt
 Post subject: [Discussion] How should Synapse-less Broods act?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:00 pm 
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In the 40k rules, they can operate normally if they pass a Leadership test (Normally Ld 5 or thereabouts). That includes the ability to shoot and charge into an assault. (This would be represented by the -3 to inititive penalty).


Are you arguing for a scale-up or just that you like the mechanic in general?

For a scale up, that's all well within Epic scale synapse range.  Units out of Epic's synapse range are much, much farther from synapse support.  The equivalent scale-up of activity in Epic would be an in-coherency formation failing to activate and taking a hold action - the out-of-position situation viewed as the cause of the failed activation and less effective fire.

If you're arguing from a mechanical standpoint, I just think we should aim for something sleeker.  With all the unavoidable nid special rules, making everything as simple as possible is desirable, imho.

==

I'd be okay with allowing a swarm without a SC to move only.  Allowing them to March would be okay.  That would keep them from firing, assaulting, or supporting because the Hive Mind's grasp on them is simply too tenuous to allow them to be coordinated.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [Discussion] How should Synapse-less Broods act?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:09 pm 
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How about this...

What would these alternate proposals really gain?  How often would it affect a game?  In my experience, the answers would be "not much" and "not very often."

Non-SC swarms tend to be very small.  Typically, by the time the SC dies, there is little left.  The difference in material is not going to be much.

That begs the question of what you can do with these little groups.  If you can activate them, you can take a non-SC swarm and 1) attempt to move into coherency or 2) suicide attack.

In order for the differing result to be relevant, you have to:
1) Lose the SC,
2) Before activation for the turn,
3) Close enough to another SC to join up, and
4) Have enough broods left for them to make a difference in the game.

How often do you guys run into situations where it would make a difference?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discussion] How should Synapse-less Broods act?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:26 pm 
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How often do you guys run into situations where it would make a difference?


Pretty much every game I play as Tyranids, at some point I end up moving a Synapse creature over to take controll of a swarm that has lost its original Synapse.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion] How should Synapse-less Broods act?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:57 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 14 2007,19:26)
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How often do you guys run into situations where it would make a difference?


Pretty much every game I play as Tyranids, at some point I end up moving a Synapse creature over to take controll of a swarm that has lost its original Synapse.

Particularly when a big, expensive WE Brood swarm gets its Synapse sniped!  *laugh*

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