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A knight list

nealhunt

Post subject: A knight list

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:45 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

We've played this a few times and so far it seems to work fine. Some of it needs a little streamlining, imho, but it's a good start.
=========

3.0 ? Using the Army List
Paladin households are the most common formations of the Knight worlds. As such you must always have Paladin households as the core of your army. You may add other types of households but must have at least one Paladin household before you can take another type. Furthermore, you must have at least one Paladin household for every two other household types selected.

Some units have access to various upgrades. Each of these upgrades may only be taken once per formation. The cost of the upgrade is added to the cost of the formation.

Units listed in section 5.0 are new or units that differ from similar units in already published lists. If a unit is listed in section 4.0 but is not also listed in section 5.0, please use the already published stats for this unit.

===

4.0 ? Army List
Knight World Legions Army List
Knight World Legions have a strategy rating of 3. Knight World Legion formations and Imperial Navy aircraft formations have an initiative rating of 2+. Titans have an initiative rating of 1+.

Household Formations [1 Paladin household allows up to 2 non-Paladin households]

Paladin Household
3 Knights Paladin
Paladin, Seneschal, Baron
200 pts

Lancer Household
3 Knights Lancer
Lancers, Seneschal, Baron
250 pts

Errant Household
3 Knights Errant
Errants, Lancers, Seneschal, Baron
250 pts

Crusader Household
3 Knights Crusader
500 pts

Castellan Household
3 Knights Castellan
500 pts

0-1 Warden Household
3 Knights Warden
500 pts

Retainer Formations (2 per core formations)
Accolades
6 Rough Rider units
150 pts

Storm Trooper Platoon
8 Storm Trooper units
200 pts
(may have four Valkyrie transport vehicles) (+150 pts)

Chevaliers
6 Bike units
Attack Trike, Assault Trike
150 pts

Mobile Field Guns
3 Field Guns & 3 Chimeras
150 pts

Household Guard Infantry
Household Guard Lieutenant unit plus 6 IG Infantry units
100 pts

Household Guard Mechanized Infantry
Household Guard Lieutenant unit, 6 IG Infantry units, and 4 Chimera transport vehicles
200 pts

Flak Battery
3 Hydras
150 pts

Recon Drovers
4 Sentinels
100 pts

Knight World Upgrades

Attack Trike Replace any number of Bike units with 1 Attack Trike each Free
Assault Trike Replace any number of Bike units with 1 Assault Trike each Free
Seneschal Upgrade one Knight to be a Seneschal of that type 50 pts
0-1 Baron Add a Baron to the formation 200 pts
Paladin Add 3 Knights Paladin 200 pts
Lancers Add 1-3 Knights Lancer 75 pts ea.
Errants Add 1-3 Knights Errant 75 pts ea.

Support Formations (No more than 1/3 of points)
Warlord Titan 850 pts
Reaver Titan 650 pts
Warhound Titan 1 or 2 250 pts ea.
0-1 Thunderbolts 2 Thunderbolts. May add 1-2 more Thunderbolts for +75pts each 150 pts
0-1 Marauders 2 Marauder Destroyers 450 pts

====

Assault and Attack bikes use the Squat minis.

Stats are as the AMTL list. I'll add the others later, but I'm sure you can guess pretty close to them.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: A knight list

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:07 am

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

Cool.

I've never really liked knights myself, but I'd be happy to play against a Knightworld list.

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BlackLegion

Post subject: A knight list

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:14 am

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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe

Cool

But some questions to the Knight stats: In the AMTL armylist the are DC1 Warmachines. I understand this is to enable the Knights to use both their CC-weapon AND their FF-Shock Lances. But why not DC2? They are bigger than Stompas and only a bit smaller than Warhound Titans.

If i would make new stats for the Knights they would look so:

ShockLance: Gives Knight a +1 on the to-hit-number in CC if on Engage orders (so CC4+ would count as CC3+).
KnightShield: Threads TK-attacks as MW-attacks and MW-Attacks as AT-attacks. Not usable in CC and Crossfire.

A critical hit destroys the Knight.

Knight Paladin (400pts for 3, 150pts each if as upgrade)
Type Speed Armor CC FF
WE 20cm 4+ 3+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Battlecannon 75cm AP4+/AT4+
Heavy Chainsword BaseContact AssaultWeapon MW, EA(+1)
Notes: DC2, Walker, ReinforcedArmor, KnightShield, ShockLance

Knight Errant (400pts for 3, 150pts each if as upgrade)
Type Speed Armor CC FF
WE 20cm 4+ 4+ 5+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
ThermalCannon 30cm MW4+ AND (15cm) SmallArms EA(+1),MW
PowerGauntlet BaseContact AssaultWeapon MW, EA(+1)
Notes: DC2, Walker, ReinforcedArmor, KnightShield, ShockLance

Knight Lancer (400pts for 3, 150pts each if as upgrade)
Type Speed Armor CC FF
WE 25cm 4+ 5+ 3+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Battlecannon 75cm AP4+/AT4+
Power Lance (15cm) SmallArms MW, EA(+1)
Notes: DC2, Walker, ReinforcedArmor, KnightShield, ShockLance

Knight Crusader (400pts for 3, 150pts each if as upgrade)
Type Speed Armor CC FF
WE 15cm 4+ 4+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Twin Lascannon 45cm AT4+
QuakeCannon 90cm MW2+, TK(1) Always places +1 BM on target formation
Notes: DC2, Walker, ReinforcedArmor, KnightShield, ThickRearArmor

Knight Castellan (400pts for 3, 150pts each if as upgrade)
Type Speed Armor CC FF
WE 15cm 4+ 4+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Twin Autocannon 45cm AP4+/AT5+
QuakeCannon 90cm MW2+, TK(1) Always places +1 BM on target formation
Notes: DC2, Walker, ReinforcedArmor, KnightShield, ThickRearArmor

Baron (150pts)
Type Speed Armor CC FF
WE 25cm 4+ 3+ 3+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Battlecannon 75cm AP4+/AT4+
Power Lance (15cm) SmallArms MW, EA(+1)
Notes: DC2, Walker, ReinforcedArmor, KnightShield, ShockLance, Commander, Inspiring, Fearless, ThickRearArmor

I see Knights as the equivalent to SuperHeavyTanks. Faster, but lighter built (DC2 instead of DC3). What they lack at firepower they have at CC- or FF-potential.

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redsimon

Post subject: A knight list

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:16 pm

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Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:26 am
Posts: 424
Location: Germany

Why the Lancer upgrade for Errant Households?
Also:
Household Guard Mechanized Infantry
Household Guard Lieutenant unit, 6 IG Infantry units, and 4 Chimera transport vehicles
200 pts

AMTL only gets 3 Chimeras and no character for the 200 points of their mechanized Skitarii unit.

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BlackLegion

Post subject: A knight list

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:15 am

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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe

A reply would be interesting

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nealhunt

Post subject: A knight list

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:16 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Redsimon: It's not a full IG commander. There are arguments to be made based on the environment, e.g. the infantry are more valuable in the AMTL list because they can cover frontage whereas the titans can't, but knight formations can actually spread out and cover a great deal fof territory so the infantry is proportionately less valuable. Overall, though, I think they are a bit overpriced in the AMTL list and probably a touch cheap in this list. Something like 175/225 respectively would be closer, imho.

BL: I've never really liked the DC1 WE concept, either. I favored either DC2 or AV status. That list was drafted using the lastest AMTL list as a base, not as a wholly separate creation.

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nealhunt

Post subject: A knight list

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:22 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

I can't remember if the Knight Warden is in the AMTL list or not, so I'm including it in the list-specific units.
=====

Knight Warden
War Engine 15 cm 4+ 5+ 3+
Warden Cannon 30 cm 2X AP4+/AT5+ Left Arc
Warden Cannon 30 cm 2X AP4+/AT5+ Right Arc
Missile Launcher 45 cm 2 BP Indirect, Disrupt
Notes DC2; 1 Void Shield; Critical; The Warden?s head is destroyed, killing the pilot. The Warden is destroyed.

Walker, Reinforced Armor, Thick Rear Armor, Fearless, Leader

Knight World Sentinel
Light Vehicle 20 cm 6+ 6+ 5+
Lascannon 45 cm AT5+ Left Arc
Notes Walker, Scout

Bikes
Infantry 35 cm 5+ 4+ 6+
Laspistols (15 cm) Small Arms
Chainswords Base Contact Assault Weapon
Notes Mounted, Scouts

Attack Trikes
Light Vehicle 30 cm 5+ 5+ 5+
Heavy Bolter 30 cm AP5+
Notes Scouts

Assault Trikes
Infantry 30 cm 5+ 4+ 6+
Laspistols (15 cm) Small Arms
Chainswords Base Contact Assault Weapon
Power Lance Base Contact Assault Weapon Extra Attack (1+), First Strike
Notes Scouts

Guard Lieutenant
Infantry 15 cm 6+ 6+ 5+
Lasguns (15 cm) Small Arms
Heavy Bolter 30 cm AP5+
Notes Commander, Leader

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BlackLegion

Post subject: A knight list

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:33 pm

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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe

Wardenn ever leave their homeplanet. This is the reason they aren't in the AMTL armylist IIRC.

Your Sentinel has a firing arc? Odd.

I think i will an extra thread for my Knights proposals. I think that my stats fit the Knights better than the current AMTL ones.

Edit: here: http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....;t=8646

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Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: A knight list

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:46 pm

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Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
Posts: 11149
Location: Canton, CT, USA

I really like this list, Neal. It's pretty much what I had in mind for a Knight-centric army list. I agree that Knights should be DC2.

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nealhunt

Post subject: A knight list

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:58 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

We've played with it 2-3 times in GT games and a 2-3 scenarios and it seems to work fairly well. Basically, the trick is getting the knights close enough. Lots of screening scout formations that also present nuisance threats work to distract enemy attention from the knights themselves.

Of course, with the 10cm Scout Intermingling rule, it can be a problem. In one game an entire side of the army ground to a halt because a scout formation failed to activate. There was no place to go without being intermingled and the screening formation was so spread out that a clipping assault was practically unavoidable.

We've officially ditched that ruling in our group.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: A knight list

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:59 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

I also agree that knights should be DC 2

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semajnollissor

Post subject: A knight list

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:35 pm

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Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:38 pm
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Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA

Well, one result of bumping the knights up to DC2 is that you'd have to bump up their point costs, too. that would result in less models on the table, and make it harder for the army to cover the objectives.

Of course, maybe that's how it should be, in some people's opinions, but it probably needs some discussion.

So, how many knight units should be on the table at 3000pts? How many formations?

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BlackLegion

Post subject: A knight list

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:55 pm

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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe

No its fairly easy. Look at the ImperialGuard in the rulebook. Take a Leman Russ Company, a Super-heavy Tank Company, a Supreme Commander and fill the rest up with Infatry Comanies and Support Formations.

Then exchange the three Companies i mentioned first with three Knight Formations and you got it.
I see no big differences activation-wise.

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semajnollissor

Post subject: A knight list

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:14 pm

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Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:38 pm
Posts: 1673
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA

The difference is that with the IG, the fewer activations are offset by the lower likelihood of those activations being lost (due to the shear number of units in the formations). In a knight list with just 3 knights in a formation (assuming 2DC knights) breaking the formation is a lot less difficult.

Also, I question the "fluffiness" of "filling up" a knight list with a bunch of cheap infantry. ?Although I can see the logic that the nobles would just run some rabble out in front, I was under the impression that the background contradicts that.

In any case, your answer to the question I posed (how many knights should be on the table in a full-on knight list?) seems to be "12," give or take, since that would be about 1600 pts by the 2 DC list above, about the equivalent to the price of those three IG companies you mentioned.

So 12 knights and 30-50 infantry? Is that what a knight list should look like?

Honestly, I don't know (or care too much). My gut feeling is that there should be as many knights on the table in a Knight list as there are battle tanks in an IG list, which is roughly 20 going by the games I've played, and I think that may be on the low end. Then throw in the 30-50 infantry and your in business.

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BlackLegion

Post subject: A knight list

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:49 pm

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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe

One Knight for every Tank? Hmm no. I don't see Knights as that common or weak that they can be compared to Tanks.
I rather see them compared to Super-Heavy Tanks.

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