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Why the differences in army lists?

tneva82

Post subject: Why the differences in army lists?

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:36 pm

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(javelin98 @ Feb. 01 2007,13:33)

QUOTE

so could they potentially take four Razorbacks (since the standard loadout for a Devastator formation would be two Rhinos, which have double the capacity of Razorbacks) and four Land Raiders as well (since the wording of the upgrade is "add" and not "replace"). ?Is that correct, or am I reading that wrong?

I believe you add only as many rhino's as are required to transport all stands and from THOSE you convert razorbacks.

So four land raiders and you need 0 rhino's to transport whole formation and ergo no rhino's and thus no razorbacks.

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J0k3r

Post subject: Why the differences in army lists?

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:40 pm

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But where does it say that the added LR must carry the devs?

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javelin98

Post subject: Why the differences in army lists?

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:54 pm

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That's the rub. If I take a Dev formation, replace it's two Rhinos with four Razorbacks, can I still add the four Land Raiders? Read literally and in contrast with the language under the Razorbacks, it seems like that would be legal.

I'm also assuming the formation could take a combination of Rhinos, Razorbacks, and Land Raiders? Such as two Razorbacks and a Land Raider?

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nealhunt

Post subject: Why the differences in army lists?

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:28 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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The SM Transport rule states that you can only take the minimum number of Rhinos needed to transport the formation - no extras. If you have enough Land Raiders to transport the formation, then the minimum number needed is 0.

The Razorback entry requires replacing Rhinos. If you can't take Rhinos, you can't replace something that isn't in the formation to begin with.

Ergo, if you take Land Raiders that can carry the entire formation, you cannot take Razorbacks.

Plus, it's in the FAQ.

6.3.1
Q: Does the Land Raider upgrade available to the Devastator formation replace that formation?s Rhinos? And if so how do you add Razorbacks to the formation if they do?

A: A Devastator formation can be given up to four Land Raiders. However, including Land Raiders in this way will mean that the number of free Rhinos the formation will receive will be reduced to the minimum number needed to carry any Devastator stands that can?t fit inside the LRs. Then, once the number of Rhino?s needed for the formation is known, you may replace each remaining Rhino with 1-2 Razorbacks.
To summarise:
1. Add any LRs to the formation.
2. Add enough Rhinos to carry any Devastators that won?t fit into the
LRs.
3. Convert any Rhinos to Razorbacks.

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javelin98

Post subject: Why the differences in army lists?

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:04 pm

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(nealhunt @ Feb. 01 2007,10:28)

QUOTE

Plus, it's in the FAQ.

Oh, well, the FAQ, obviously, but besides the FAQ, the rules, the minis, the fluff, and the novels... what has SG ever done for us??

Sorry... bit of a Python moment there. Anyhoo...

So a Dev formation could conceivably be one of the following combos (ignoring Vindicators, etc. and just looking at transport):

* None
* Drop pods
* Two Rhinos
* One Rhino and one LR
* One Rhino and one Razorback (except one stand is now stuck walking -- shouldn't two RB's be required?)
* One LR and one RB (same problem as the previous case)
* One Rhino and two RB's
* One LR and two RB's
* Four RB's (minimum number needed to carry the formation)

So, if I wanted to take a foot formation but I wanted a vehicle along for fire support but not transport, would that let me take a Dev formation with a single Razorback, for instance? Or is it "miniumum or nothing"?

It just seems like the rules, by stating "one or two Razorbacks" create the impression that, while the formation would technically be forced to take two RB's per Rhino to make sure everyone had a hooptie, there are times when one RB can be selected.

Wait...

I think I just answered my own question. If I had a Dev formation with two Rhinos and I added a Commander, that Commander would need transport, wouldn't he? And I could choose either a Rhino or a single RB... so for regular troops, the ratio is always two RB's to one Rhino, and the single RB scenario comes into play when a Commander is added? Okay, the fog begins to clear... But wait! A Land Raider formation would then be forced to take a Razorback or Rhino if it had a Commander attached, wouldn't it? Oh, the burning! The burning!

And another question: Can a Titan Battlegroup take a Commander upgrade?

Thanks,
jav98

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Chroma

Post subject: Why the differences in army lists?

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:30 pm

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(javelin98 @ Feb. 01 2007,20:04)

QUOTE

* ?One Rhino and one Razorback (except one stand is now stuck walking -- shouldn't two RB's be required?)

Actually, since you, with transport, you need the "minimum" number of Rhinos needed for the formation, a Dev Detachment that takes 1 Razorback, still gets *two* Rhinos!

That actually happens to any Marine formation that takes an "odd" number of Razorbacks for Rhinos.
I think I just answered my own question. ?If I had a Dev formation with two Rhinos and I added a Commander, that Commander would need transport, wouldn't he?

Marine Commanders are characters, so they are *added* to a unit/stand that's already part of the formation, not as an extra unit. So, a Dev Detachment with Commander is 4 Devastator Units, one with a Commander, and 2 Rhinos. (Technically, you could add the Commader character to a Rhino, but that would be silly! *laugh*)

When you place a Marine Commander to a Land Raider detachment, he's added to one of the Land Raiders, giving it leader, invulnerable save, and anything else the specific Commander adds.

And another question: ?Can a Titan Battlegroup take a Commander upgrade?

Nope, at least not in a Space Marine army, as Titans don't have any optional upgrade choices listed.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Why the differences in army lists?

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:32 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA

There's another FAQ that clarifies the rhino/razorback conversion. I just posted that one because Devs were in question. SM formations can take an "odd" razorback and end up with one over the minimum transport level.

Basically, the language is all dorked up. The main purpose of the restriction is that you can't take hordes of free Rhinos for bulk. The restriction is on empty vehicles, not on empty transport slots. Just think of it this way:

Add LRs (or other transport) as allowed
Add Razorbacks if allowed and if there are remaining units to be transported
Add minimum number of Rhinos to transport any remaining units

For example:

Devs
4 LR
LR upgrade allows up to 4. At that point, all units are transported. No Razorbacks or Rhinos allowed.

Devs
2 LR
Again, all units transported, no Razorbacks or Rhinos

Devs
1 LR
1 Razorback
1 Rhino
LR upgrade allows a single tank. 2 units remain needing transport, so you can take a Razorback. After 1 razorback, you still have a single unit needing transport. The minimum number of "free" Rhinos to transport them is 1, so you can take it even though it bumps the total transport slots to 5.

Devs
3 Razorbacks
1 Rhino
Again, an odd wingle unit needing transport allows a free Rhino, which bumps the total transport capacity to 1 more than is technically needed.

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javelin98

Post subject: Why the differences in army lists?

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:45 pm

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Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:39 am
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Location: Spokane, WA, USA

Okay, I've made some modifications. If anyone wants to poke around with the spreadsheet, it's at:

http://home.comcast.net/~kudby/EpicArmyBuilder.xls

It may not work with OpenOffice, as the data validation thing sometimes behaves badly in OO.

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Markconz

Post subject: Why the differences in army lists?

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:31 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

Yes you should always take an odd number of razorbacks in every formation to get a 'free' rhino

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