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Greens want us to pollute!

 Post subject: Greens want us to pollute!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:48 pm 
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I was a huge disbeliever in global warming... UNTIL I saw that 60 Minutes airing a few months ago. ?It was entitled the top ten ways we'll kill ourselves or something similarly cheery.
After watching that I went on a hunt to check out the data on the Greenland ice shelf and -sure enough- 60 Minutes did their homework. ?That bad boy is melting like an ice cube in a bowl of hot soup.

If the Greenland Iceshelf collapses the world's oceans will raise by approximately 6 feet! ?Then we are totally SCREWED. ?Antartica iceshelf collapse will be another 6 feet. ?

12 foot increase will displace almost 2 billion people globally. ?This impacts living space, agricultural lands, drinkable water, ?and food supply.

The flip side of it is the communities and farmlands that are fed by snowcap melt are getting hammered too. ?Less snowfall means less drinkable/usable fresh water for those without wells (most of the world). ?

So I'm all for fusion, fission, solar, geothermal, wave power (which California has been flirting with for years), ANYTHING that cuts back on the damage. ?But even if we cut back on the everything and dispersed the technology overnight, some experts are saying it will be another 20 years before the temperature can get back to 'normal'.

As a believer, the only thing you can trust is that God promised never to flood the whole Earth again after rescuing Noah and his family.

I am buying a house 500 feet ASL higher than my last house, just in case He decides 50% of the Earth is okay. :p

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 Post subject: Greens want us to pollute!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:08 pm 
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That 60 Minutes episode hit home for me, too. I've been a proponent for fusion research for 25 years. Anything that can be done to curb global warming sounds good to me. Fortunately I don't need to worry about my house being in danger of rising sea levels.  :D

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 Post subject: Greens want us to pollute!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:52 am 
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the global warming thing is real, it's only nailing down all the causes that is still in doubt. don't believe the politicians in the U.S. remember our president is an incompetant religious fanatic who can niether speak or do simple math! (back off man i'm a scientist :D ). but if you want to find the root cause it's that there are too many people living on this rock to support are extravigent(can't spell tho, know that ones wrong ) use of energy. i know, i'm from america where we are the biggest energy hogs on the planet, no matter what you do ?to try and turn the tide the best plan is to stop having so many babies, the chinese have a really good idea there(even if they do have to be all authoritarian(hey did i spell that right ? go me!)to get it working). so really even tho i'm about as much of a tree hugger as is possible without being a complete flake, if you really want to save the world from mankind, hang yourself and leave everything to me. ? (especially your minies :D )
? ?meanwhile i promise i'll be working my tail off trying to get us off this stinking rock so we can polute the rest of the cosmos ( my stated career goal, if nasa will hire me with this whole mad scientist laugh thing happening ?:devil: ) seriuosly tho, i'm glad even the dwarves are begining to get it, we have to last long enough to get REAL space travel for people, ?or think of all the wonderfull things we might miss !
?o.k. rant complete i hope i managed to keep it light hearted enough not to piss anyone off.  ?:p

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 Post subject: Greens want us to pollute!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:57 am 
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Hi Mohawk,

Thanks for your response.

I'm disagreeing with some of what you said, but I have nothing against you personally.


(Mohawk @ Nov. 27 2006,13:50)
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Sorry to correct you but that myth is to longlived by far. Global warming is proven and accepted by the research society as a whole.


That's OK. You're not really correcting me. You're stating your opinion and then claiming that because a majority of researchers that you perceive to be a majority and don't quote agree that it must be true. I disagree.

Sorry. I do have a science education and I have actually read REAL research and I haven't seen conclusive evidence of global warming yet.

Additionally, every time I hear that the research community as a whole agrees on anything I get skeptical.

The research I've seen quoted so far has mostly been "Al Gore" and "60 Minutes" and both of those media productions cited shoddy research.

I say this respectfully, but what you have stated is not fact nor conclusive.

You could call either argument a myth and that wouldn't change anything.

It is true that humans have most likely sped up the warming of the globe, but we're still not sure about the cycle of heating and cooling on the globe. While I think that it sure doesn't hurt to be careful, we really ought to learn more about the Earth before we come to hasty conclusions.


(Mohawk @ Nov. 27 2006,13:50)
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There are some researchers that still claim the opposite, the most loud is sponsored by the petroleum institute (USA corp - dont remember the exact name)...


Yes, evil oil companies do fund research that says otherwise.

*** But where does the research from the global warming folks come from? ***

When you look at their sponsors, you'll find real money and big corporatuions there too so I don't buy the "evil megacorporations" argument. I save thatr argument for GW... LOL :)

We all have interests and blaming the folks that are skeptical about unproven and inconclusive global warming theories because someone associates them with money isn't very convincing.

Sorry, I'm not a true beleiver.

On the other hand, I do beleive in stewardship of the earth and being an eco-friendly person. Global warming may not have conclusive evidence, but I'd rather be careful just in case.

I also beleive in talking about science in relative terms. After all, so much of science is theory with arguments in favor and against it without either being able to be called fact or even conclusive.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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 Post subject: Greens want us to pollute!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:13 am 
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Hi Iluvitar,


(illuvitar @ Nov. 28 2006,01:52)
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don't believe the politicians in the U.S. remember our president is an incompetant religious fanatic who can niether speak or do simple math! (back off man i'm a scientist :D ).


I don't care for your characterization of the current US President as an incompetent religious fanatic.

That's pretty personal, not said with much tact and says some not so nice things about perfectly good folks with a little religion.

And the current US President is a horrible public speaker, but that's never been the prime prerequisite for being a good leader. People like Moses had problems too.

He can also do simple math and even more complicated math. His college transcripts have become public record and he passed and even excelled at some advanced mathematic and scientific courses that many of us probably haven't.

He also earned pilot's wings, which don't come for free and involve a tremendous amount of math. I've been through pilot training and I remember it clearly.

Having said that, I'm not a big fan of the current US President, but I've always beleived that you should respect the office if not the person in it. Wait until the guy leaves before you level the unfair criticisms, be constructive with your criticism until then otherwise you're just making the job harder for the guy you're already saying isn't doing it to your satisfaction. You ought to make it easier on him and help him along towards what you think is right.

I'm not going any farther, but I can take your whole argument except for that bit, which is less than kind.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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 Post subject: Greens want us to pollute!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:30 am 
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That's OK. You're not really correcting me. You're stating your opinion and then claiming that because a majority of researchers that you perceive to be a majority and don't quote agree that it must be true. I disagree.

Sorry. I do have a science education and I have actually read REAL research and I haven't seen conclusive evidence of global warming yet.

i can only say that you are probably not seeing all the research, i really think the carbon cycle data can't be explained any other way. true the earth obviously goese through mega trends in temp. but according to all the arctic ice data even the most extreme have been MUCH slower. that said my expertise is in physics and engineering , so i dont remember the researchers names and i cant quote sources. i must also say in all fairness that you are VERY correct that having a true scientific outlook is to be skeptical, i applaud you sir. the fact that you believe in stewardship of the earth makes you a friend of mine as far as i'm conserned(grrr probable spelling error AGAIN) on the whole well spoken sir ,you are the soul of discretion and diplomacy. :D

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 Post subject: Greens want us to pollute!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:39 am 
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and you are correct ive been unkind to old george, i truly think he deserves it , but i can't defend my argument on any moral grounds, it was funny tho imho (although i'm sure many disagree) i retract my statement, i hope he does better. i have past my ground school and i must insist that the mathmatics is minimal, however yes i was being mean i apologize to any whom i offended in my attempt at humor. in calling him a fanatic however i will stand my ground, i do not mean to insult anyones religion by this, i mearly advocate religous tolerance, and think that anyone who speaks of crusades can only inflame the troubles of this world. i am myself a buddist and do truely hope the atheists are wrong , although i do in my darker hours see there point all too clearly !

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 Post subject: Greens want us to pollute!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:15 am 
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Hi Illuvitar,

No worries, mate. I have a thick skin.

I do get tired of anti-Americanism get paraded so often without any real argument or support for it, just nasty words based upon unsupported slanderous argument. That kind of lame argument gets tiresome when used against anyone, American or not.

Thanks for the measured reply. It's appreciated.

All the best to you and Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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 Post subject: Greens want us to pollute!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:29 am 
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@MaksimSmelchak
Just to straight some things out (from my perspective ?:confuse: ) - i do have a science education, quite alot actually (Master of Science and then some), further my line of work, and my wifes, keeps me updated regularly.
If you dont ?accept "60mins" etc (which i can accept/understand form a scientific point of view even if 60mins are regarded to have pretty high status from what ive heard) please quote better sources yourself.

I haven't seen conclusive evidence of global warming yet.
- have you seen any evidence that its not happening? I have not. But youre right, there is no perfect proof in the traditional way of global warming, and there probably never will be - its very hard to get clear evidence from "tests" ex vitro as you should know, probably impossible in a vat as large as the globe
There is however hard proof of a temperature increase at a rate never observed in earths history. There is also proof of rapidly increasing (at rates never encountered before) rates of greenhouse gases coming from human activity. There is proof of a connection between high global temerature and high rates of green house gases in the atmosphere.

The trends, the world community (even US EPA is coming along , the American Petroleum Institue and Bush has changed stance a bit) and - here we disagree - the scientist community points at Global Warming as a fact. The debate today isnt if its getting warmer, it is how much human activity increases global warming. ?

*** But where does the research from the global warming folks come from? ***

When you look at their sponsors, you'll find real money and big corporatuions there too so I don't buy the "evil megacorporations" argument. I save thatr argument for GW... LOL
GW is the worst of course.. funny.. its short for Global Warming.. That aside, most sponsors for the global warming folks comes from public funds ?- either diectly national or trough organisations such as UN.

Just to lighten up this dour post a bit:
http://www.transbuddha.com/mediaHolder.php?id=1147


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 Post subject: Greens want us to pollute!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:52 am 
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Ok, time for me to wade in here too :)

I work in a university geography institute that is heavily involved in climate change research.  Regarding a coiunt of hands of all the researchers ive met in the wider community I have not met a single one that does not agree that climate change on a global scale is occuring.  As to whether its anthrogenic there is somewhat less consensus, but the majority believe it is.  And believe me, we talk about this an AWFUL lot  :(

Ok- far from empirical, but I am trying to point out that I have never come across the fierce debate on whether global warming (Well, climate change more accurately) is occuring, instead there is debate over certain details; taken as a whole though I think the scientific community in geosciences (OK, extrapolating wildly here) are convinced it exists.

One of the problems regarding the debate is that there is so little understanding of what happens at the end of an interglacial- remember the steady state of the planet for the last few million years is an ice age and we should be plunging into another one any time soon :)  Anyway, heres a sobering ice core graph showing just how big ice temperature swings have been over the past 400,000 years, shown  as deviation from current temps I think(From wikipedia im afraid- but ive seen the same in journals)




One of the really interesting points to note is that in previous interglacials there have been periods of far warmer temperature (lions and hippos were on the edge of the thames during the Ipswichian for example).  However the rate of climate change was slower than is being observed now.  

Ive read research that suggests at the end of an interglagial there is a period of climate instability followed by a global temperature crash.  There are also feedback cycles where global warming could lead to a global cooling- we could inadvertantly trigger the next ice age sooner.  

Anyway, is this warming anthropogenic? Given the lack of long term records, it is hard to say objectively.  What is certain is that there is global climate instability, a recent rise in global temperatures and sea ice in the arctic and antarctic is reducing scary fast.  Maybe it is the global climate re-adjusting itself before the plunge into the next ice age.  In which case, kiss goodbye to the northern hemisphere.  How'd you like to live below a kilometer of ice?  

However if its is anthropogenic change then its our responsibility to deal with it.  Indeed the human benefits of cleaning up our act are worth tackling climate change alone- ie less dependence on finite natural resources = greater global security, more biodiversity = improved quality of life, less pollution = cleaner air.  Given those benefits alone, tackling climate change is simply an added bonus!  

The counter point is that our actions may not mean much to the planet- compared to say the Deccan Flats erupting our burning of carbon is paltry in comparison, however we should be far more focussed on whether we render the planet habitable for ourselves.  Currently there are far too many of us and we are stressing our ecosystem.  Unless we want to have a massive poulation re-adjustment we need to clean our act up.

Oops, got a bit carried away there  :D





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 Post subject: Greens want us to pollute!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:59 am 
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I will remind everyone that this topic is shifting very much towards political discussion, and would request that it is treated as delicate and avoided if it seems to inflame.

Thank you.

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 Post subject: Greens want us to pollute!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:05 pm 
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Personally, I think one has to construct a fairly obscure conspiracy to come up with reasons why scientists would want to convince us that human activity is having an effect on the climate when we aren?t.

On the other hand, the reasons why some parties would want to convince us that we?re having no effect are clear.

Incidently, BP and Shell dropped the ?humans aren?t having any effect, there?s nothing to worry about? line some time ago.

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 Post subject: Greens want us to pollute!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:29 pm 
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(J0k3r @ Nov. 28 2006,10:52)
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Anyway, is this warming anthropogenic? Given the lack of long term records, it is hard to say objectively. ?What is certain is that there is global climate instability, a recent rise in global temperatures and sea ice in the arctic and antarctic is reducing scary fast. ?Maybe it is the global climate re-adjusting itself before the plunge into the next ice age. ?In which case, kiss goodbye to the northern hemisphere. ?How'd you like to like below a kilometer of ice? ?

However if its is anthropogenic change then its our responsibility to deal with it. ?Indeed the human benefits of cleaning up our act are worth tackling climate change alone- ie less dependence on finite natural resources = greater global security, more biodiversity = improved quality of life, less pollution = cleaner air. ?Given those benefits alone, tackling climate change is simply an added bonus! ?

The counter point is that our actions may not mean much to the planet- compared to say the Deccan Flats erupting our burning of carbon is paltry in comparison, however we should be far more focussed on whether we render the planet habitable for ourselves. ?Currently there are far too many of us and we are stressing our ecosystem. ?Unless we want to have a massive poulation re-adjustment we need to clean our act up.

Oops, got a bit carried away there ?:D

Thanks for this, Jok3r.  I may only have the sketchy knowledge of one module in Geography 101 at Uni, taken 3 years ago, but everytime carbon emmissions and climate change were brought up, the whole prsopect is highly alarming for future generations.

When you come down to it, CO2 is a climate warming gas, burning fossil fuels releases more than there presently should be in to the atmosphere.

It is easy to blame a specific nation, or political figure (and believe me I do have gripes like everyone else), but when you come down to it, we ALL are guilty of contributing to climate change and environmental degradation.

There are massive problems, from an ecological perspective, with the Western consumer lifestyle - which developing nations are now aspiring to emulate and catch up with.

Nothing short of radical change is neccessary, but we are all caught up in our lifestyle/cultural millieu, and short of completely dropping out of it, there seems little we can do.

Of course, this is not the total truth, which is why when  an Environmental group is lobbying politicians or governments to pass laws to protect the environment, I add my name to it.  I do get frustrated - I want to recycle more, but our local authority doesn't do much to encourage it, other than paper and glass bottles.

I think a lot of apathy has to be overcome - the public could sway governments (locally, nationally & internationally) to exact such changes.

It's so complicated, it does get me down sometimes with worry :(


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 Post subject: Greens want us to pollute!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:30 pm 
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(Bombot @ Nov. 28 2006,10:05)
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Personally, I think one has to construct a fairly obscure conspiracy to come up with reasons why scientists would want to convince us that human activity is having an effect on the climate when we aren?t.

On the other hand, the reasons why some parties would want to convince us that we?re having no effect are clear.

Incidently, BP and Shell dropped the ?humans aren?t having any effect, there?s nothing to worry about? line some time ago.

Well stated, I was about to post pretty much the same thing myself.

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 Post subject: Greens want us to pollute!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:07 pm 
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(firestorm40k @ Nov. 28 2006,10:29)
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I think a lot of apathy has to be overcome - the public could sway governments (locally, nationally & internationally) to exact such changes.

It's so complicated, it does get me down sometimes with worry :(

I used to get down about it too, but I got involved about 15 years ago in some environmental issues through a club at university to try and make a difference (I was doing a zoology degree with heavy ecology component at the time so the problems were very much in my face - though I was the about the only person in the classes who actually did anything that I saw  :( ). Specifically...

-The sitting in front of logging truck thing...  :D  This was no  new age hippie 'saving the souls of trees' or anything like that, but rather an attempt to preserve the last remaining examples of some unique ecosystems, that exist nowhere else on earth. (To my mind a scientifically valuable resource as well as aesthetically important).

-Promotion of recycling (postering, and sticking some letters in envelopes).

-Attendance at a couple of those 'critical mass' bike rallies where you jam the roads with cyclists to press for better cycle facilities in the public transport system.

-Yacking about it to people and driving them crazy  :D .

Amazingly these activism activities actually worked in all cases (except maybe the yacking). The ecosystems I was worried about are now mostly national reserve parks. We now have curbside recycling bins for a large range of metal, plastic, paper and card products (and it is recycled locally). Finally we have special lanes for bikes (often brightly coloured) on many main and other roads to encourage more cycling.

I also refused to even learn to drive for 15 years, but I will need the ability for work soon so I got my license recently. I still mainly use public transport or cycle most of the time though, as it is cheaper, more convenient, and more productive (time on a bus can be spent reading my neuroscience papers, rather than being a driving zombie in traffic, and cycling is about the only real exercise I get! :laugh: ).

So that is probably a best case scenario for activism (little effort but big results), but it shows it does happen, and made me feel a lot more positive about the possibility for things to change.

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