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Terminators and transport
Legion 4
 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:55 pm 
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DWWFY !  ( I'm not pointing at any one in particular) :D  I only mention the way we do things because we like it and maybe someone else may want to try it ...  And I see your point Wolf 1 and I see your points also, Neal.  But DWWFY as always ... :D

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:50 pm 
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Good points BtI !  In SM1, the Rhino had 2 bolters, so a 4-5 vehicle det. could have a little firepower ... It does not work this   way in E:A ... :D  We should vote in an optional rule on a Hvy Bolter on the Rhino !  And the M113 for that matter !  :D

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gary_clark1946
 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:01 am 
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Neal we have been of the same side and different sides in some discussions.
I always respect your opinion.

And you are very right about people taking advantage. I just have a difficult time getting it in to my head that some play more to win than just have fun.
Guess I am just a stuborn old fart. :)

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:52 am 
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Me Too ! (50 in Dec.!) :;):

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:43 pm 
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(gary_clark1946 @ Nov. 16 2006,23:01)
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And you are very right about people taking advantage. I just have a difficult time getting it in to my head that some play more to win than just have fun.
Guess I am just a stuborn old fart. :)

Fair enough.  I've had to have my mind changed on other issues for similar reasons.  Sometimes it's hard to wrap my brain around a powergamer mindset these days.  And as I said, it might not be a problem.  I'm just not comfortable stating that it's definitely not.

BTW, I hope my replies didn't come across as harsh.  They weren't intended as such but I have a tendency to write in an abrasive fashion from time to time.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:47 pm 
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Nov. 16 2006,20:45)
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Part of the problem with letting Rhinos run around seperately in Epic is that they are damn near worthless by themselves. ?With the M113 and the Ma Deuce it mounted you at least had a decent fire support platform for the squad it carried. ?(Depending on terrain and situation...) ?With the "withering firepower" of 2 bolters on the Rhino you could do more damage running troops over than by shooting at them! ?I thought it was funny that the best the Space Marines could do to make the Rhino more like a real APC was to allow a Storm Bolter upgrade. ?Wow! ?Now you can bounce bolter shells off of heavy armor at a higher rate of fire!

I'm surprised nobody has come up with the upgrade to make the Rhino more like a M113 - for so many points you get a Heavy Bolter mounted on a Rhino. ?Do that and then you'd have a real reason for the Rhinos to tag along.

Matt

??? But there is a heavy bolter on a rhino upgrade (razorback).

By the way there is a related thread at SG at the moment:
http://www.specialist-games.com/forum/t ... IC_ID=9694


With the "withering firepower" of 2 bolters on the Rhino you could do more damage running troops over than by shooting at them!  I thought it was funny that the best the Space Marines could do to make the Rhino more like a real APC was to allow a Storm Bolter upgrade.  Wow!  Now you can bounce bolter shells off of heavy armor at a higher rate of fire!


This made me laugh!  :D   I know what you mean :)  



Back to the original topic (kind of  :D )  - one of the few areas where I think 40k is superior to epicA, is that your transports are not tied to their squads. They can zoom off in the manner described by L4.  Interestingly there have been discussions on 40k forums about whether transports should have to stay close to their squads (like in epic). However, real life military people like L4 shoot that idea down pretty quick.

It would be nice if your transports could zoom off in some fashion in epicA, but I'm content to wait for someone else come up with rules for it. I guess you would really need to have transports and their passengers as two seperate formations - which leads to the host of problems described by Nealhunt.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:23 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Nov. 17 2006,08:43)
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Sometimes it's hard to wrap my brain around a powergamer mindset these days.

I'm with you there, Neal. It has never occured to me to look for a loophole in a rule solely for the purpose of defeating my opponent.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:59 pm 
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Well like I said, we still use the SM1 system for dealing with that ... and don't play Epic out of the box ...  In SM2 that "APCs on a leash" rule was goofy, IMO ... or IMHO !   And we only took very little from SM2.  The E:A morale rules, unit integrity, etc., causes a "Cascade Effect", with APCs as sep. dets. !  Causing as more problems then it fixes, in E:A !                      And BTW I always thought and still do, that the morale and leadership rules are weak but work.  However, as always G/W spends too much time with C/Cbt as in 40K ...  And that taints too much of the system.  The SM1 C/Cbt system, with some mods, works fine for us ...  But no matter what - DWWFY !  :D  I'm just an "Alter Kampfer" rambling on !  LOL !  :;):

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iblisdrax
 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:21 am 
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Anyone that played E40k probably has horrid memories of the SM 'Rhino Shield' where the Rhinos in their own detachment ran out in front after offloading its troops ....  Cheap and effective at screening.  None of the other armies could pull it off, and with the massive formations you could put together... [Sigh]  So I for one don't miss that particular rule.  But thats, as always, only my opinion.  :)


ib

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:04 am 
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Hmmm ... transports are too valuable to be use like that, IMO !  :D   But don't let me stop you !  :)

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iblisdrax
 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:22 pm 
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Well...like I said, I hated it....so I was happy when they took that bit out of E:A!  :)



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Legion 4
 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:48 pm 
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Yes, E:A is the Best (and most likely the last!) Version of Epic IMO ! :)  But we still modified it as I said before. And Rhinos are transport ... not cover !  But you know that "ibli." !  :;):

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:15 pm 
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(Legion 4 @ Nov. 18 2006,04:04)
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Hmmm ... transports are too valuable to be use like that, IMO ! ?:D ? But don't let me stop you ! ?:)

When you have to worry about getting to the next battle, sure.

But not when you're 'just playing a one-off game' (or pretending to be Spartans @ Thermopylae).

********************************
I'd like to point out that FoW has some interesting rules for transports.
1. ?Transports are part of the unit, not assigned to the unit from a motor pool (although there are some exceptions to this rule).*
2. ?Transports DO NOT count for platoon numbers when determining if the platoon is under 50% strength. (ie, platoon started with 7 infantry stands and 4 transports. ?4 stands have been destroyed, so the platoon is under 50%)
3. ?Transports DO count if they've been destroyed for determining if the platoon is under 50% strength. ?(ie, platoon started with 7 infantry stands and 4 transports. ?2 stands and 2 transports have been destroyed, so the platoon is under 50%)

*This is based on historical practice for the Germans. ?The Squad SdKfz 251 halftrack is crewed by two men, who are members of the squad that rides in the 'track. ?I believe that was also the case for the US Armored Rifles, but I haven't read anything to confirm. ?The exceptions are when trucks are bought as a SEPARATE unit, instead of as part one.

Maybe a further tweak to ATSKNF is in order to further increase the ability of the Marines to operate on the ground?

"Marines do not depend on their transports in the same way as other forces. ?A Marine unit with transports is not Broken until it has received 2 blast markers per unit, but blast markers on transports do not count for purposes of determining number of units Suppressed. ?For example, a Tactical Detachment with Rhinos has come under fire and lost 2 Rhinos. ?It has received a total of 3 blast markers. ?NO Marine stands are Suppressed."

[edit:  spelling]




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Legion 4
 Post subject: Terminators and transport
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:20 am 
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Well, in reality in Mech Units the APCs/IFVs are part of the unit organically.  My Mech Co. had 14 M113s and 112 men, for example. But in the game that really does not matter ... I think the FOW is a good one, for Mech troops, whether SM, Ork, Eldar, etc.   As I said, the "Transport on a Leash" rule, just does not work for me, as I said ... before.  :D  Thanks Lion !

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