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Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal

Jaldon

Post subject: Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:20 am

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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am
Posts: 720
Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.

As an answer, and I know it will not sound like one................yet.

I DO NOT want to violate rule 1.7.4, but I want to also make sure that Synapse isn't violated at the same time without punishment to prevent the 'quick transfer' tactic of synapse.

BUT, I want the Nids to be able to launch assaults outside of Synapse range while retaining coherency with the Brood Creatures launching the assault.

I have a few ideas I am bouncing around that may be an easier fix then writing the entire rule all over again and ending up sowing even more confusion. Suffice to say the two roads I am looking at go something like these......

(1) Make Synapse Creatures effectively a formation within a formation thus having their own coherency seperate from the Brood Creatures being controlled. Thus the Brood Creatures would be a formation controlled by a Synapse Formation and both could seperate from each other as it refers to rule 1.7.4

(2) Re-Write the exsisting rule to allow for assault being the only instance in which brood creatures can leave Synapse Coherency, while they still must maintain unit coherency.

Thanks All............................

Jaldon

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ayoras

Post subject: Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:43 pm

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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:44 am
Posts: 52

First of all, I would like to thank you all for your detailed answers, especially nealhunt who has very impressed me. Your post summarize (in a very long way but it is necessarely) perfectly how the hive mind controls its hord. In a first approach, we can see the hive mind the way you speak at the beginning : ? that the hive mind is an integrated and coherent whole and able to react with complete information all the time then your idea of "Oh, no, we're losing! Run over to that other Synapse and save yourselves,". But I think like you it is only an approximation.

The truth is exactly like you explain : ? Tyranids have Synapse Creatures to decentralize "command" to a certain extent to prevent overload of information-processing and decision-making resources. They're sort of like subcommittees (or sub-subcommittees) with limited autonomy. The hive mind trades off its direct control and access to information in return for limited flexibility at the local level. ?. But why LSN can?t SEE with its own eyes other synapses on the field and why it doesn?t send the bugs which survive the assault join another swarm when it sees that the assault seems to be lost.

The point I forget is the scale of an epic battle ! A LSN may not know exactly where the nearest other SC is or it may not have the capacity to decide which nearby SC is the best recipient, according to the time took by the information to go to the hive mind and ?to spread among the SC. Indeed, the LSN may not see the others synapse in cause of the ? epic ? distances. The other armies have communications system (radio, telepathy ? (for the eldars)?) which allow any formations on the field to know the position of the other formations all the time. The ? system ? used by the nids is the hive mind which is not perfect and have lags.

If we consider that the LSN is engaged in an assault, we could consider that it is less sensitive to the hive mind because it is busy. I still find this point odd, but now, I can see a background explanation to this, so I can accept it more easily.

To the synapse/normal coherancy rule, as you can read, I have a low level in english, so I suppose that I can?t help you efficiently.

Another time, thank you all.

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Jaldon

Post subject: Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:49 am

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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am
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Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.

Just after

The only exception to this is when a swarm is carrying out an Engage Action

If a Tyrnaid Swarm declares an Engage Action against an enemy formation then the Swarm's brood creatures can move beyond both Synapse Range and Normal Coherency with the synapse creatures controlling the Swarm at the start of, and during, that Engage Action (This does mean that ALL of the Swarms brood creatures do have to maintain normal coherency with each other, and that the synapse creatures can ignore normal coherency). At the finish of the Engage Action any brood creatures that have not returned to both normal coherency and synapse range with the original swarm are removed as destroyed (This represents brood creatures that have either continued to pursue fleeing enemy troops beyond the control of the synapse creatures, or have gone into a feeding frenzy which also puts them beyond the control of the synapse creatures).

If an Engage Action is initiated against a Tyranid Swarm then all the rules for normal coherency still apply to all the creatures in the swarm including the synapse creatures. However, brood creatures are allowed to ignore synapse range in carrying out their counter-attack moves and at the end of the Engage Action.

Any brood creatures that start a turn not within 15cms of a synapse creature will go to ground and are removed from play.

Any Thoughts?

Jaldon

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nealhunt

Post subject: Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:29 am

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Why the exception for them being assaulted? I'd say when they engage and leave it at that.

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ragnarok

Post subject: Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:41 pm

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 2084
Location: Reading, England

I still think we should par it down to just

(Jaldon @ Nov. 09 2006,01:49)

QUOTE

Any brood creatures that start a turn not within 15cms of a synapse creature will go to ground and are removed from play.

Short and simple no way for the rules layers to exploit it.

True it allows for the formation of a brood creature skirmish screen, but one that will dissappear at the beginning of the next turn and it is a formation that leaves the synpase vulnerable to enemy fire.

It also stops the nodes from launching long range assaults with hormagaunts, but that isn't their job. A node should just sit there, bubble and look after the artillery.

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Jaldon

Post subject: Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:13 am

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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am
Posts: 720
Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.

Why the exception for them being assaulted?

To prevent confusion, and 'game play' misinterpitation of the intent of the Engage Order when the Nids are assaulting.

Short and simple no way for the rules layers to exploit it.

Actually that was exactly how the original rule was written and the 'rule lawyers' were exploiting it like crazy to accomplish things never intended in the original design outlay for the army.

The basic problem is that under the old rule the Tyranid Army becomes as flexible on the battlefield as the Eldar Army

, when using Engage Actions.

Examples Using an Engage Action.

Tyranid Swarms would assault into the area of a Synapse Node, and well out of the range of the Original Synapse Creatures that controlled them, but into the Synapse Range of the Node. The question then becomes who controls them now in mid-turn? Believe it or not some attempts were made to claim that the Node now controled them, and since it hadn't activated yet, could give the Brood Creatures it had just 'inherited' a new order.

Tyranid Swarms could literally launch an Engage Action out into the blue, then have Synapse Creatures moved up into the area to 'scoop them up' at the start of the next turn. It became almost childs play for the Nids to use assaults to set up moving Walls of Claws, and reposition the entire army of Brood creatures for the next turn.

Not exactly the vision of a Horde Army of loads of bugs and claws.

There are others, suffice to say that adding a Synapse Coherency Rule was an attempt to reign this in while at the same time giving the Swarms some Forced continuity during the turn. This rules addition did reign this Nid Speed of the Eldar problem, returning the army back to true Horde status, but had the unintended effect of reducing their assault range too much. This made such abilities as Infiltrator and a move of 20cm almost pointless as Synapse became the ultimate determination of the true assault range of the units.

This rule is an attempt to make Infiltrator and a move of 20cms worth having for assaults, while punishing players that push their assaults a bit too far.

True it allows for the formation of a brood creature skirmish screen, but one that will dissappear at the beginning of the next turn and it is a formation that leaves the synpase vulnerable to enemy fire.

And I have seen it done where this Screen becomes so massive, and covered by overlapping Synapse, as to be almost impossible to break and with the added bonus of being able to plow head first at the foe in an engage action with no fear of ever being out of Synapse.

It also stops the nodes from launching long range assaults with hormagaunts

Actually it makes it easier to launch these kinds of assaults. The Hormies launch their assault, leaving the Nodes Coherency, and later another Synapse Creature Group moves up into range of them before the start of the next turn. (Scooping Them Up, or Hand Off tactic).

The present rule still allows the Nodes to do this but it becomes a pure suicide assault as the Nid creatures out of Synapse range are removed at the end of the assault.

Thanks All.........................

Jaldon

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ragnarok

Post subject: Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:37 am

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
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Location: Reading, England

I can see some of the points you have made big J however some of them baffle me (damn rules layers, the regular ones are bad enough).

If you luanch an assault (without the leaving the synpase creature behind rules) and leave the synpase creature behind then it is out of normal cohereancy (which is checked at the end of the engage move) and are removed as casulaties. Do a couple of these assaults and you hand BTS to your opponent.

And the attempt to claim that synpase control can switch mid turn is just cheating. The rules state that formations are decided at the start of the turn, not whenever you feel like it.

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ragnarok

Post subject: Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:41 am

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 2084
Location: Reading, England

(Hena @ Nov. 10 2006,09:15)

QUOTE

(ragnarok @ Nov. 10 2006,10:37)

QUOTE

If you luanch an assault (without the leaving the synpase creature behind rules) and leave the synpase creature behind then it is out of normal cohereancy (which is checked at the end of the engage move) and are removed as casulaties. ?Do a couple of these assaults and you hand BTS to your opponent.

Come again, you either leave them or not?

In situation where one would have to choose which part to leave, synapse should always be preversed. Remember you can choose which part of the formation is removed. You can remove synapse or brood ... depending which you want.

Sorry I wasn't clear enough.

According to how I read the rules (which isn't always that good. Upto yesterday I thought a marine SC was an upgrade to a character, so you could have a chaplin SC, but I digress) once you made an assault move you check cohereancy and remove those that are out of cohereancy.

Now lets imagaine a trio of warriors have as their brood 20 odd stands of hormagaunts. and they are sent on an engage so that they ae then within synapse cohereancy of a LSN once the engage is over (so the rules lawyer can claim they are part of the nodes swarm for a follow up assault). In doing so they all leave cohereancy of the three warriors.

Now if we don't have the "You may leave cphereancy of synapse creature on an engage order" rule then the swarm is out of cohereancy and units must be removed from play until cohereancy is restored.

To do this either all three warriors must be removed or all 20 something hormagaunts.

If the hormagaunts are removed then the assault never happens and the rules lawyer shot himself in the foot (cheer), or he removes the warriors, assaults you but brings you closer to BTS (bigger cheer)

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ragnarok

Post subject: Synapse Coherancy & Withdrawal

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:21 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 2084
Location: Reading, England

I agree that under the current rules that bold text does apply. however I am wishing to have the bold text removed all together.

It is just too bulky for my liking. Synpase cohereancy is A in situation 1, B in situation 2 if siuation 3 happens then C happens.

I would love T1.40 to be simplified, removing all the different aspects of synpase. Somthing like (as usual changes in bold)

T1.40
The Tyranid army is divided into three basic types of units, these are; Brood Creatures, Independent Creatures, and Synapse Creatures (with Brood Creatures themselves being further subdivided into Uncommon Brood Creatures, and Common Brood Creatures). Each creature’s type is noted on their individual data sheets and in the army list that follows.

Independent Creatures are organized into formations like other units. They are treated in all ways as if they were a normal formation in Epic-A, as this concerns coherency, and formations.

Synapse creatures and brood creatures are treated a bit differently. Instead of
become part of a swarm that is controlled by synapse creature group. It must be understood that the Swarm is the formation, and that both the synapse creature group controlling it, and the brood creatures in it, are a single formation containing units.

At the start of the game the Tyranid player first makes synapse groups from synapse creatures. Then the player simply assigns one, or more, brood creatures to a synapse creature groups thus creating a formation called a swarm, until all the brood creatures have been assigned. All such swarms must be set up in a legal formation using the instructions for the scenario. In addition the units must be set up within 15cm of the synapse creature group. If the Tyranid player wants they may hold some brood creatures back and not assign them to any synapse creature group. These unassigned brood creatures may be used when a swarm spawns during the game (see T1.40 Spawning I think this is a typo. It should be T1.50 spawning).

At the start of the second and sunsequent turns, before teleportation or anything else, any brood creature that is more than 15cm from a synapse creature is removed from play,Although not dead it is assumed that the creatures have reverted to their animalistic instincts and are lurking on the battlefield waiting for an easy chance to get their next meal. These brood creatures may return to the game using the Spawning action (T1.50) described below.

Notes:
1) brood creature are assigned to synapse creatures at the start of the turn and may not be handed off part way though a turn

2) The lose of synapse creatures during a turn does not result in the lose of the formation until the startof the next turn (at which point any members not within synpase range of a new synpase creature will go to ground)

3) Remember that the core cohereancy rules still apply so any creature that end any move out of synapse range will be removed as casulaties

The notes aren't really needed. They are just their to remind those who wish to bend the rules thatt hey shouldn't, and could easily be done in diagramatic ways.

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