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SG Article Marine Units
Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:53 am 
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I like the idea of a Techmarine stand as opposed to a character upgrade (or as an alternative to?). I'll post my take on stats when I can.

As for a Techmarine/Apothecary mechanic, would it be too fiddly to say that all units (LV and AV for techmarine, INF for apothecary) within 5cm gain the Invulnerable Save specialist unit ability?

You could make that a Specialist Unit Ability.

Heal
The unit contains field medics able to patch up troops that are injured or repair experts capable of fixing damaged vehicles. All friendly units from the same formation within 5cms of this unit gain the invulnerable save specialist unit ability. This ability is usually limited to giving this bonus to a particular type of unit, so Heal (INF) only grants an invulnerable save to infantry units within 5cms and not to LV or AV units.

As for attack bikes, make them FF5+ and they should be balanced AND it gets around the issue of FF4+MW attacks from multimeltas!

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ragnarok
 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:52 am 
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My group used some multimelta dreads the other day.  They proved quite nasty.

A pair of them and a dev formation in a thunderhawk can be a real pain for any armoured formation.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:17 pm 
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I like the idea of a Techmarine stand as opposed to a character upgrade (or as an alternative to?). I'll post my take on stats when I can.



While I understand the appeal of having a seperate unit for an Apothecary or a Techmarine, it pretty much flies in the face of how characters are handled in the Space Marines.  Look at how the army list is structured: you either have detachments or you have upgrades to the detachments.  All of the characters in the SM army are upgrades to detachments.  While the newest figure in WH40K is very impressive looking, I don't understand why it, or its stats, or its ability to significantly upgrade itself would warrant the need for a seperate stand.  If there was any character that should be made as a seperate unit to be added to a formation, it should be the Supreme Commander, not the Techmarine, in my opinion.


As for a Techmarine/Apothecary mechanic, would it be too fiddly to say that all units (LV and AV for techmarine, INF for apothecary) within 5cm gain the Invulnerable Save specialist unit ability?


Why would you want to limit it like that?  What is the advantage of doing that?  The only thing I can think of is that it would make it possible for the Techmarine / Apothecary to help units in other formations, but with the 5cm range you want to impose they'd have to be too close to make it worthwhile.  Considering the unit coherency rules and the desireability of keeping your troops spread out so that they don't become artillery bait, you have just halved the effectiveness of the Techmarine / Apothecary.

Now, let's take the argument in the entirely opposite direction - What happens if a Techmarine is within 5cm of a titan?  Does that titan now get an invulnerable save?  What about a Thunderhawk carrying a Techmarine?  Does the Thunderhawk now get an Invulnerable save to prevent it from being shot down?  What if you have an Apothecary within 5cm of a commander?  Does it now get to make 2 invulnerable saves?  What if you have 2 (or 3, or 4) Apothecaries within 5cm of a Supreme Commander, does it now get even more Invulnerable saves?

There are three reasons why it is desireable to make the Techmarine / Apothecary a character like the others that give their ability to the whole formation:

Ease of Implimentation - it will be a lot easier to make the Techmarine / Apothecary a character modification to a troop than having to make up new stats, debate the stats, playtest them, debate the stats, and publish a whole new unit entry.  And once these new stats that are drawn up new are published they will be debated later.

Conformance to Precedence - Why should the Techmarine / Apothecary be different from the other officaer characters?

Ease of Use - Wouldn't it be easier to just simply say "Every (whatever) in this formation gets an Invulnerable save" than to have to measure to see if they are in range?

Keep It Simple...

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:24 pm 
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I'm with Blarg on the Apothecary / Techmarine, Upgrade is the way to go, with the syntax only allowing the saves to be taken if the Apothecary / Techmarine is not embarked on a transport (So that a techmarine can't give the Thunderhawk he's riding an invulnerable save, and an apothecary can't save his battle brothers who had their rhino blown up if he's inside a different Rhino).

Note that in the case of a combined or intermingled assault, the Techmarine or Apothecary would become more powerful due to all units involved being treated as one large formation? This would require an explicit note to prevent.

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Markconz
 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:15 pm 
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I agree with the upgrade idea also.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:19 pm 
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I concur, upgrade makes more sense for E:A.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:58 am 
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Okay...

1) Why make a Techmarine a unit? Because that's exactly how they now operate in most cases in 40K. They are also, unlike the captians, apothecaries and chaplains, outside the normal company organisation.

2) Why limit it to 5cms? Because that's more realistic. Why should a techmarine be able to fix a tank 30cms away just because he's in the same formation? And 5cms is pretty easy: that?s simply all models within normal coherency. But simply applying an Inv save to every unit in the formation seems unrealistic and over the top.

3) Why not a character upgrade? Well, we can make him a character upgrade too. These rules are for fun, right?

4) Ease of playtesting? Actually, playtesting a new unit is much easier than playtesting an upgrade to any unit. Plus, again, these rules are for fun, we can make it as appropriate as we like.

5) War Engines. Yeah, they shouldn?t be able to fix WEs (although Techmarines can in 40K AFAIK), but note that I did say ?part of the same formation?, but I guess he could technically be temporarily part of the same formation under certain circumstances. I?ll put that in.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:28 am 
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1) Why make a Techmarine a unit? Because that's exactly how they now operate in most cases in 40K. They are also, unlike the captians, apothecaries and chaplains, outside the normal company organisation.


Indeed he operates as a unit in 40k, just as a Commander has a Command Squad in 40k, or a Chaplain has his Assault squad.

And they have that squad as part of the larger force organisation.


Which is pretty much having say, one squad of 5 tactical Marines out of 30.

Or one Upgraded base in a tactical detachment of 6 bases...

Sorry you've a ways to go to convince me that Techmarines should break precedent here.

2) Why limit it to 5cms?

I wouldn't be adverse to this, but from a pure gaming perspective, it's easier to apply to the formation entirely.

One Epic turn representing 15 minutes, that seems like plenty of time for the Techmarine to dash 50 feet and effect repairs on a vehicle that got shot up on the other end of the convoy.

5) War Engines. Yeah, they shouldn?t be able to fix WEs (although Techmarines can in 40K AFAIK), but note that I did say ?part of the same formation?, but I guess he could technically be temporarily part of the same formation under certain circumstances. I?ll put that in.

Indeed, Techmarines do have this ability in 40k.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:43 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 03 2006,19:28)
QUOTE
Indeed he operates as a unit in 40k, just as a Commander has a Command Squad in 40k, or a Chaplain has his Assault squad.

Ah, but in normal terms they are simply added to another squad of Space Marines (which may well act as their Command squad or honour guard), and would normally act as part of their Company.

Techmarines don't just join a squad of Space Marines (although they can), they normally operate independently of the company and have their own squad of techmarines drawn from the armoury as their retinue.

So to summarise:
1. Command squads are drawn from the company, techmarines/servitors aren't.
2. Techmarines operate independently.
3. A Techmarine/servitor unit really is very different from adding a Techmarine to a tactical squad.

One Epic turn representing 15 minutes, that seems like plenty of time for the Techmarine to dash 50 feet and effect repairs on a vehicle that got shot up on the other end of the convoy.

Fair point, but remember he's doing this in addition to whatever he should be doing in game terms. Pesonally I think it feels better if it is kept close.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:57 pm 
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Fair point, but remember he's doing this in addition to whatever he should be doing in game terms. Pesonally I think it feels better if it is kept close.


In game terms that's what he should be doing.

If he takes Gun Servitors, then he is going to be spending his time killing things anyway, so the vehicles in his formation shouldn't get an Invulnerable save, which then makes him pretty much the same as a Librarian, according to the 'seperate unit' proposed stats.

That's why he should be represented as with a Technical Servitor retinue, running around fixing things, and not spending his time directing lascannon fire.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:02 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Nov. 06 2006,14:43)
QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 03 2006,19:28)
QUOTE
Indeed he operates as a unit in 40k, just as a Commander has a Command Squad in 40k, or a Chaplain has his Assault squad.

Ah, but in normal terms they are simply added to another squad of Space Marines (which may well act as their Command squad or honour guard), and would normally act as part of their Company.

Techmarines don't just join a squad of Space Marines (although they can), they normally operate independently of the company and have their own squad of techmarines drawn from the armoury as their retinue.

So to summarise:
1. Command squads are drawn from the company, techmarines/servitors aren't.
2. Techmarines operate independently.
3. A Techmarine/servitor unit really is very different from adding a Techmarine to a tactical squad.

One Epic turn representing 15 minutes, that seems like plenty of time for the Techmarine to dash 50 feet and effect repairs on a vehicle that got shot up on the other end of the convoy.

Fair point, but remember he's doing this in addition to whatever he should be doing in game terms. Pesonally I think it feels better if it is kept close.

You raise some very interesting points, and it goes a long way to explaining your position.  Thank you.

With game design, or adding new units to an existing game, you have to balance adherence to background and flavor against overburdening the game with small details.  Being an engineer, I like details.  The more the better.  But I also appreciate elegance - being able to capture a point, an idea, a sense of beauty, without haveing to say or be a lot.  The more that can be expressed with the least amount of talking.  (Unlike what I am typing...)

In more vulgar terms: you have to balance the crap thrown in with the Keep It Simple, Stupid (KISS) principle.

The points that you make are valid for making the Techmarine (and maybe the Apothecary) seperate, but in my opinion you haven't overcome the KISS principle barrier to warrant making them seperate.

Is your average player going to care that Techmarines are put under the Commander upgrade instead of their own special upgrade?

Does making Techmarines one of the Commander upgrade possibilities negatively impact the army list?  

Does making Techmarines a seperate upgrade enhance, or maintain, the integrity of the army list?

(I've made some pretty heated arguments regarding Imperial Titan weapon stats in a vein similar to what you are arguing for Techmarines, but I did so because I thought that the titans would be negatively impacted if we went the KISS route.)

Do we care that we will not be able to add both a Techmarine and a Commander option upgrade to a formation?  Do we need to be able to have a Techmarine and a Chaplain in the same formation?

While your arguments based upon fluff du' jour are interesting, I still don't see the need to make a special exception for the Techmarine and/or the Apothecary.  Your ferver has not overcome my indifference.

Maddening, isn't it?

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gary_clark1946
 Post subject: SG Article Marine Units
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:46 pm 
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IG have some commanders as stands as well as some other armies.

I though it was crazy when EA went with the characters idea. And mainly for SMs. That is one reason I still prefer NetEpic even when I think EA plays better.
I think the restrictions on the army list are ... can't think of a good word with out offending some and that is not my intention.

All the units that everyone is screaming that they are not possible or some such nonsense have been overcome with conditioning from the Inqusition.

As to difficulty in costing... Use a normal stand and add the chacter cost.

In the evolutions of epic it went from a really "Epic" type game, followed by some changes then it dropped to not much more than a skirmish game and now it is an oversized skirmish game. The really Epic feeling has gone and there are  little overly restricted pieces.

It isn't going to happen but if accurate points values for each unit were determined the rest would be easy. And trying to say you can't do that because its effectiveness varries as to how you use it shows little knowledge of statistics.
It has been done before. Are you saying it can't be done with EA?

OK, end of rant.

Still it is an excelent game. I just can't buy the current idea of how lists should be. However, I don't have to since I do not play tourneys. :)

I'll shut up now.

Gary (an old Long Fang)
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