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Plasma weapons

 Post subject: Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:31 am 
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(Hena @ Oct. 03 2006,11:04)
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So you are talking about the modular weapons and not the current AMTL list?

Yep I'm talking about the Modular system.  Plasma weapons don't do it for me in the standard list.

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 Post subject: Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:52 pm 
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OK, so you guys want to play around with the plasma weapons because you don't think the heavier plasma weapons are nasty enough? ?Well, OK, let's think this one out...

Inherent within the Modular Cost system and the current list system is the assumption that Imperial titans can swap out weapons from time to time, be it from battle to battle, campaign to campaign, or century to century. ?The length of time is not important, what is important is that we agree that the weapons can be swapped around and are not built into the titan.

Following that line of logic, one would assume that the weapon mounts on the titan and the weapon interfaces with the mounts would have to be standardized. ?(To some extent.) ?If they weren't then whenever you changed the weapons on a titan you would be more dis-assembling and re-assembling the titan than changing out the weapons. ?Even if the weapons were not swappable, one could argue that the Imperium's reliance upon no longer understood Standard Template Construction (STC) vehicles would mean that the titans would not be individually crafted constructs but standardized designs made in a process similar to large jumbo-jets.

If the weapon mounts are standardized then wouldn't it follow that the amount of power supplied to each standardized mount would be equal among the weapon mounts? ?Even if a weapon were a ballistic weapon that did not have the large electric power conversion requirements of an energy weapon it might still take a significant amount of power to fire, not only for the servos to slue the weapon and load ordinance, but also for any magnetic/gravitic recoil compensation.

Now, if the weapons are swappable amongst weapon mounts that are standardized with a standard amount of power supplied, wouldn't follow that you can only squeeze out so much destructive firepower out of a titan weapon? ?(A maximum damage capability.) ?"Why?" you ask. ?Because matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed, only converted. ?The purpose of the weapon is to convert the energy given to it into a different type of energy that can be used for destructive purposes: ?

- Lasers ?(Volcano Cannons, Turbo-laser Destructors, Laser Blasters) and micro-wave emitter weapons (Melta Cannon) would take electricity and convert it into electro-magnetic radiation of different wavelengths. ?

- Gauss weapons (Quake Cannons, Vulcan Mega Bolters, Trident, any of the CC weapons) would take electricity and impart kinetic energy to a projectile, servo, or ram piston.

- Plasma weapons would take matter, heat it to where it could deliver a high amount of thermal energy as a plasma to a target, and project the plasma upon that target.

Since the standardized amount of power supplied to a weapon mount and the inability to create energy (only convert it) gives the upper limit of destructive capability of a weapon, it also serves as the lower limit of a titan weapon's destructive cpability. ?After all, when these titans and their weapons were first being designed and built, before the technological decline of the Imperium, you can be sure that the engineers would ensure that all of the weapons provided maximum firepower for the energy delivered to it. ?After all, why use a weapon that did not maximize the power given to it?

This line of reasoning is part of why I think all of the weapons should be made eqaul to each other.

The Plasma Cannon, IMO, should not be touched because it is equal to one of the three weapons that Jervis Johnson upgraded on the Imperial titans: the Gatling Blaster. ?(Take the Gatling Blaster, make it a macro weapon and slow fire to compensate for the MW.)

The Plasma Blastgun, IMO, should be a short-ranged, ?rapid-fire plasma weapon. ?The Plasma Destructor should be a long-ranged, low-rate-of-fire weapon.

There's my thinking on the subject, I relinquish the soapbox...





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 Post subject: Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:58 pm 
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A good reply and one I will need to think on.

However there are some areas of the weapons that you haven't touched upon.  such as a weapons ability to utilise the power given it (such as the reload rate of a gatling blaster reducing its rate of fire) and the power lose as the energy changes form (from the plasma reactor to the electical to the kenetic for a VMB for example).

With the plasma weapons I always thought that they took plasma directly from the reactor and projected it forwards.  Thus very little energy is lost along its path.

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 Post subject: Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:00 pm 
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Well written Blarg, and largely accurate to the fluff.

But I disagree with you, because most of your arguament is aimed at promoting this view:

...all of the weapons should be made eqaul to each other.


Which does not match the background at all. It's a pure 'gaming' method of conceptualising Titans, rather than being fluff-led, and that's anathema to me.

The Modular list was made so that I (And later, we) could see whether the other Epic systems were better at incorporating other weapons fits into Titans in other Imperial armies.

Anyways, the recent vote shows where most people stand.

With the plasma weapons I always thought that they took plasma directly from the reactor and projected it forwards.  Thus very little energy is lost along its path.

Blarg is right in that historically Plasma weapons consumed the most power.

However they were also quite concretely amongst the most destructive.





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 Post subject: Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:04 pm 
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And you miss one point:
Each weapon doesn't consume an equal measure of power.
You can have a plasmablastgun which say consumes 10,000MegaTesla (a unit fromthe 40k-universe) and a plasmadestructor which consumes 100,000MegaTesla on the same weapon mount. But the overall energy output for the titancould be 1,000,000MegaTestla which can be divided between its weapons, speed and VoidShields.

In fact i have thought about rules for AT3 and came out with a set amount of "PlasmaPoints" an titan generates per round to divide upon weapons, speed, and voidshield-regeneration. Under this system Plasma-weapons where the most PlasmaPoint-intesive weapons.

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 Post subject: Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:41 pm 
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Also missed is the to hit roll. Why would the available power influence the weapon accuracy?


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 Post subject: Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:57 pm 
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The to-hit-roll doesn't represent the accuracy only, it represents the power and destructiveness of the shot too. The more energy the more destruction the weapons causes.

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 Post subject: Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:24 pm 
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However there are some areas of the weapons that you haven't touched upon.  such as a weapons ability to utilise the power given it (such as the reload rate of a gatling blaster reducing its rate of fire) and the power lose as the energy changes form (from the plasma reactor to the electical to the kenetic for a VMB for example).


You're right, I didn't touch upon energy loss due to inefficiency (friction, heat loss, entropy, etc.) because you're getting into fine details that I couldn't really address accurately, nor would I need to.  Considering the rather abstract nature of Epic I was abstracting those energy losses down to the assumption that they would be roughly equal from weapon to weapon.  If they were not then the AMTL would not use the weapon (unless for special reasons) or modify it so that it delivered roughly the same destructive capabilities as the other weapons.

With the plasma weapons I always thought that they took plasma directly from the reactor and projected it forwards.  Thus very little energy is lost along its path.

I don't know what the fluff has said about plasma weapons or energy transfer in the WH40K genre.  I'm assuming that energy would be transferred electrically, possibly using super-conduction.  While, theoretically speaking, channels could possibly be created that transferred plasma from the reactor to the weapon, only the plasma weapons would really benefit from that set-up, and at a rather unaaceptable chance that a magnetic bottle somwhere could fail.  Then you have a titan that has been partially vaporized, something you'd want to avoid.

<<<--->>>

Which does not match the background at all. It's a pure 'gaming' method of conceptualising Titans, rather than being fluff-led, and that's anathema to me.

1) I don't remember reading anywhere in previous editions of Epic that certain weapons were more powerful than other weapons.  If you could point those sections out to me I would greatly appreciate it.  Of course, if you can find any significant amount of fluff about the titans I would appreciate seeing it...

You could argue that the plasma weapons, currently and in previous editions of Epic, cranked out a huge amount of energy in one shot, but those same weapons typically had the "Slow Fire" rules written into them, meaning that while your single turn rate of destructive power was pretty high, over a period of time it averaged out to be equal to other weapons.

2) Considering the dearth of fluff about titans and the AMTL, and fluff's rather mutable nature within GW, I disagree with you.  The whole purpose of my reply above was to show that weapons equal to each other made sense based upon logic, not what some half-baked caffeine-crazed gaming writer cranked out just in time for deadline.  Let's think of it this way: you are the Legate of a legio and you're about to outfit your titans for the coming battle/war/crusade.  You know that the weapons in group A produce more destructive firepower than the weapons in group B or C.  So why not take the weapons in group A only and adjust your tactics and order of battle to match.  For that matter, why would the AMTL even make the weapons in groups B & C if they know they are not as good as the group C ones and won't be taken.

3) To me, fluff is like religion: it makes a good guide on how to do things, but it should not be law.  I would rather have a good set of gaming rules that tried to follow fluff well instead of have a cruddy set of gaming rules that slavishly adhered to fluff.  And since you are writing rules up about units in a game you might want to loosen your grip on the fluff.

Considering on how little background has been written about the AMTL strictly following fluff puts you on even shakier ground.  I mean, face it, there has been more written about the internal organs of Space Marines than there has been on the organization of titan legios.  Which is more important to game mechanincs, though?

The Modular list was made so that I (And later, we) could see whether the other Epic systems were better at incorporating other weapons fits into Titans in other Imperial armies.

Admittedly I haven't paid too much attention to what you have written about your system, so please forgive me if I have missed something.  I don't remember seeing you put any formulas up for how you figure out whatever you figure out.  Right now it seems to be all "I" (you) and little "we" in this affair.

Anyways, the recent vote shows where most people stand.

Ah, you're wielding the tyranny of the majority derived from a couple of shoddy polls to keep me down.  Keep up the good work...

Blarg is right in that historically Plasma weapons consumed the most power.

However they were also quite concretely amongst the most destructive.

Aside from a couple of half-sentences of fluff and the slow-fire rules written into the weapon descriptions there isn't much to go on.

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 Post subject: Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:44 pm 
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Admittedly I haven't paid too much attention to what you have written about your system, so please forgive me if I have missed something.  I don't remember seeing you put any formulas up for how you figure out whatever you figure out.  Right now it seems to be all "I" (you) and little "we" in this affair.


There's at least five multi-page (generally 3-4+) threads in the AMTL section where we worked on balancing the Modular weapons list. The first thread or two contains the lists where I transferred the costs from NetEpic's costings based on the full-cost ratios of standard configuration Titans. Post that time we've been playtesting, theorising & refining the list for several months now.

Aside from a couple of half-sentences of fluff and the slow-fire rules written into the weapon descriptions there isn't much to go on.

Well, there are the old AT/II/NetEpic rules. :)

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 Post subject: Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:59 pm 
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And you miss one point:
Each weapon doesn't consume an equal measure of power.
You can have a plasmablastgun which say consumes 10,000MegaTesla (a unit fromthe 40k-universe) and a plasmadestructor which consumes 100,000MegaTesla on the same weapon mount. But the overall energy output for the titancould be 1,000,000MegaTestla which can be divided between its weapons, speed and VoidShields.


This passage actually proves my point about half-baked gaming writers rather nicely, and I'm not referring to you BlackLegion.

The "Tesla" (and the potential "megaTesla") is an actual unit of measure in the scientific community.  It is named after Nikola Tesla, a Serbian born American electrical engineer and physicist who contributed greatly to the understanding of electricity and magnetics.  The "tesla" is a unit of measure that shows how strong a magnetic field is.  (Magnetic flux actually)  The only connection that a tesla has to power generation might be in reference to the magneto-hydrodynamics of a nuclear fusion reactor.  It is not a unit of measure for power generation, nor should it have been used in fluff.  If GW, or one of their hacks, want to write about power generation on a titan they should either use real units of measure (like the watt) or make something up (like the "kibini" or the "bonfarcci")

In fact i have thought about rules for AT3 and came out with a set amount of "PlasmaPoints" an titan generates per round to divide upon weapons, speed, and voidshield-regeneration. Under this system Plasma-weapons where the most PlasmaPoint-intesive weapons.

Kind of like what GW did for the Imperator in "Titan Legions" game.  Interesting, that would be neat, especially for small point value games.  I could see plasma weapons sucking up a lot of plasma points only if they were to bypass the Slow-Fire rules or fire more attacks than what they are currently rated at.

Also missed is the to hit roll. Why would the available power influence the weapon accuracy?

Let's say you have Osama Bin Laden standing up against a wall and you have a rifle and an anti-tank rocket.  If you want to kill Osama with the rifle you have to hit him in a good place, while if you fire the anti-tank rocket at him you just need to make sure it hits the wall rather close to him and explodes, instead of a direct hit, to kill him.  While the scale is a bit off, you see my point: a more powerful weapon can turn a miss into a hit by using secondary damage to destroy the target.

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 Post subject: Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:12 pm 
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Or it could be soemthing called MegaThule instead of MegaTesl?a, could be wrong here :).

Neat example, but if you wand to punch through an Adamantium-plate it doens't matter if the impact affect 10m? of Adamantium-plate or only 1cm? if it doens't breach it.

A waterbomb covers a great area but has very small piercing power against a brick-wall :D but an G3 rifle would punch through it.

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 Post subject: Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:29 pm 
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Quick note: the plasma points idea was used in AT2. They called them Reactor points, and each titan had a rating (5 for a Warlord). You rolled a die for each point, and any 4+ rolls bought you an action. Made the game very tense when you were head to head and didn't get enough actions to nail your opponent!

Plasma weapons in AT2 were roughly similar to Melta-cannon, so powerful but not more so than other weapons.

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 Post subject: Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:36 pm 
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Hey Reaver, I playtested my first two games with your damage tables last week (In E:A games).

They worked very well!

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 Post subject: Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:51 pm 
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Neat example, but if you wand to punch through an Adamantium-plate it doens't matter if the impact affect 10m? of Adamantium-plate or only 1cm? if it doens't breach it.

A waterbomb covers a great area but has very small piercing power against a brick-wall  but an G3 rifle would punch through it.


True, but then the kinetic energy that a thrown waterballoon has is markedly smaller than the kinetic energy of a rifle bullet.  Even though the water ballon may have several times the mass of the bullet it will have a lot less velocity behind it than the rifle bullet.  

And really, piercing power is not what you are looking for in killing a person or destroying a vehicle of some kind.  You are looking to impart enough energy, whatever kind it might be, to a target to destroy it.  Destroy it, not pierce the armor.  Piercing the armor is not the only way to destroy something, and piercing the armor, in and of itself, does not garuantee a kill.  If you take an artillery gun and fire it directly at a tank you may not pierce the armor but you could blow the turret clean off of the turret ring.  If an artillery shell misses a tank / whatever you might not penetrate the armor but the blast effects might flip or topple the target, rendering it distroyed.

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