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There is now a version 1.7
jfrazell
 Post subject: There is now a version 1.7
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:01 pm 
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version 1.7

As of point of writing I cannot tell if this is the only change recommended to the BT list (I am assuming this is the case).

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Chroma
 Post subject: There is now a version 1.7
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:23 pm 
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(jfrazell @ Aug. 18 2006,15:01)
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version 1.7

As of point of writing I cannot tell if this is the only change recommended to the BT list (I am assuming this is the case).

I *believe* that version 1.7 is just Sotec's way of stopping all the armchair arguing and complaining, not the full extent of the changes to the Eldar he is proposing.

Since, in that message, he indicates he'll be privately testing a "1.8", I think it's pretty safe to assume that more changes will be proposed.

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Mephiston
 Post subject: There is now a version 1.7
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:46 pm 
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Yep, looks like Sotec has given up on the committee approach.

Pitty, I think what the ERC is given will contain more changes than most of us think are necessarry.

I still think its strange that the Eldar now have no access to leader. Is there some fluff reason for this?
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Chroma
 Post subject: There is now a version 1.7
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:01 pm 
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(Mephiston @ Aug. 18 2006,15:46)
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I still think its strange that the Eldar now have no access to leader. Is there some fluff reason for this?

Eldar have never had access to leader, at least in the Biel-Tan list.  The only place it exists is under the supreme commander ability of the Autarch.

The Tau playtesters have been discovering that lack of leaders in a lot of their formations was having a strongly negative impact on their later game survivability and I can't see how the same can't been seen with the Eldar.

Rather than dropping it, I still like the "only unbroken" formations benefiting from Spirit Stones.

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bloodman
 Post subject: There is now a version 1.7
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:07 pm 
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Well to an extent. The eldar are dying race and would rather run away and come back later than risk they lives pointlessly so im my opinion they should be breakable easyly.

also there leaders would probably advise discreation over valor as eldar births are very rare and each imortal man women child is a valued member of there race.

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Mephiston
 Post subject: There is now a version 1.7
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:24 pm 
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(Chroma @ Aug. 18 2006,16:01)
QUOTE

(Mephiston @ Aug. 18 2006,15:46)
QUOTE
I still think its strange that the Eldar now have no access to leader. Is there some fluff reason for this?

Eldar have never had access to leader, at least in the Biel-Tan list.  The only place it exists is under the supreme commander ability of the Autarch.

I've been overlooking the fact that SC gives you leader in addition to Commander  :(

Now I see that Eldar can have a leader I shall slink off and stop complaining about it!  :;):
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Ilushia
 Post subject: There is now a version 1.7
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:01 pm 
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From the style of the post, I'd bet that Chroma is right. This seems more like an act of desparation to avoid people who are sitting around going 'I don't like X because it conflicts with my idea of how the Eldar should be!'. He's been pushing REALLY hard to get people to actually TEST the changes before commenting. And I, for one, do feel bad for him... Since just about everyone's been complaining out of hand at his ideas, and a lot of them seem like a good choice to me. Now if only I could find the time to play some games again...
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jfrazell
 Post subject: There is now a version 1.7
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:26 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Aug. 18 2006,19:01)
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From the style of the post, I'd bet that Chroma is right. This seems more like an act of desparation to avoid people who are sitting around going 'I don't like X because it conflicts with my idea of how the Eldar should be!'. He's been pushing REALLY hard to get people to actually TEST the changes before commenting. And I, for one, do feel bad for him... Since just about everyone's been complaining out of hand at his ideas, and a lot of them seem like a good choice to me. Now if only I could find the time to play some games again...

I think thats part of the problem. We're into V1.7  already with substantial changes in each version, all in the matter of a few weeks.  Generally you're not going to get many playtest games at that stage.

I do feel that people should be free to comment. The onus is on the person who wants to change the list to prove those necessary or beneficial, not the critics.  Further, when you have other army champions harshly disagreeing with you in public, then its time to back of a little and think about what you're trying to achieve.

1) Is there a consensus that the list needs to be modified.

2) If so how strong and to what extent is the consensus on that?

3) If above then tailor the changes to that.  

Step #2 has been eliminated and that is what everyone is screaming about.  There is no consensus that radical changes need to be implimented to the existing list.  At V1.7 nearly every unit and every special rule has been materially changed. To go to that level the list would have to have been fundamentally broken in the first place. I don't see that.  Overpowered likely, some units weak - thats usually the case.  Fundamentally broken?-No not by a long shot.

Further, the changes requested are not KISS. Jetbikes for an easy example. We're now at the point of reducing armor and fnudamenetally changing what they are. IF there is a need why not try to reduce the armor save first and gauge that impact, or adjust the points to make the list more expensive? Then tweek further if the consensus is that they remain too strong.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: There is now a version 1.7
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:00 pm 
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I've asked repeatedly for explanations.  I've asked for both motivation behind the changes and an explanation of how the changes achieve the motivating goals.  I've been as specific with the questions as I know how so as not to just give a vague "why" and expect some sort of comprehensive answer.  I've seen a summary of the 40K rule changes with a fair amount of detail.

I still have almost no idea as to the purpose of half the changes or more.

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Tactica
 Post subject: There is now a version 1.7
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:22 pm 
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jfraz,

As noted (at much more length) over at SG, I think the 'sticky' nature of 1.6 vs. the 'just posted as normal thread' approach of 1.7, not to mention the ensuing changes and the appearent short and sweet - "just go do this" was really meant to appease a few.

The 'other' work or the 'real work' appears to be going on in 1.6 and perhaps what is soon to be a 1.8 version.

As noted in the longer 1.7 response, I think what you see in 1.7 is the beginning of Sotec getting publicly frustrated.

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Markconz
 Post subject: There is now a version 1.7
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:09 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Aug. 18 2006,18:01)
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And I, for one, do feel bad for him... Since just about everyone's been complaining out of hand at his ideas, and a lot of them seem like a good choice to me. Now if only I could find the time to play some games again...

I felt bad for him too, until he went and did this!  :p

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MC23
 Post subject: There is now a version 1.7
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:08 am 
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This makes me think of Sotec from the old playtesting days when he would throw out all sort of ideas in rapid succession coming purely from his train of thought. Unfortunately this is a review of an existing published army where such behavoir is unwarranted.

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philipc68
 Post subject: There is now a version 1.7
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:28 am 
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I've refrained from commenting on changes since I haven't even managed to playe a game of E:A yet (tomorrow will be the first time, yay!)

However, as a design principle I agree with many people's comment that Sotec's suggestions are too much to start with - the complete list of changes is a big perturbation to add to an army which is possibly only a little out of balance. I don't understand the resistance to starting to playtest with a small list of changes and see how that goes. Spirit stones have been pretty thoroughly shown to be unnecessary. The only big remaining problems appear to be 1) revenants are too cheap 2) hit&run on jetbikes is a bit too good (based on people's reports). While I like some of Sotec's other suggestions I think it would be simpler to first make the minimum changes necessary to balance the list, *then* think about rationalising/simplifying/sensiblising the army. I also don't care how well the Epic army follows 40k (within reason), they're different systems and things that matter at 28mm don't necessarily matter at 6mm.

Anyway, tomorrow I'm going to play my Ulthwe vs. Marines. The only rule change I plan to make is to drop spirit stones.

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Markconz
 Post subject: There is now a version 1.7
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:45 am 
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(philipc68 @ Aug. 19 2006,04:28)
QUOTE
Anyway, tomorrow I'm going to play my Ulthwe vs. Marines. The only rule change I plan to make is to drop spirit stones.

Poor marines  :;):  I look forward to hearing your results and impressions though.


My group is playing a game with an Ulthwe player and a Guard player, against two orks players tomorrow (I'm one of the orks  :) ) We will be using what I've decided to call 1.7M. This is a much cut down list of changes selected from Sotecs (ones which seem to have more support and better chance of actually getting through ERC):

http://www.specialist-games.com/forum/t ... IC_ID=8355

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