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Living Metal

Ilushia

Post subject: Living Metal

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:44 am

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189

So... After having played against Corey last saturday I've been giving some thought to the 'style' of Living Metal, and the way it interacts with TK weapons.

Over all here's what I get: Multiple weak shots beat one big shot against Living Metal. This doesn't feel right, it makes some weapons VASTLY better then others.

Here's an example: Phantom Lances on the Phantom Titan are TK(1) normally but have Pulse. So between the two they can inflict up to 6 TK hits on a Living Metal target, which is neat. Deathstrike Missile is TK(D6). Against most targets it'll be comperable in damage capacity to the Phantom Lances... Against a Living Metal target it's horrible. It gets automatically reduced to TK(1) and thus will almost never stack up.

Likewise: Melta-Cannons at 2x TK(D3) are better then Aeonic Orbs at 1x TK(D6). Which again just doesn't feel right.

So I'd propose the following: TK weapons roll for damage as normal, however the Living Metal unit gets a normal save -AND- Reinforced Armor save against each damage the TK weapon would inflict. I feel this will make TK weapons a bit more useful against Necrons, and do a lot to balance out the 'Faster weapons are better' effect of Living Metal.

Under that idea the above listed units are roughly comperable again. Melta-Cannons do D3 and Aeonic Orb does D6, but save against each hit, and so on. It'll make TK weapons a bit more lethal against Living Metal targets, but I think it'd go a long way to making them feel right (The blast isn't any less powerful, it's just the armor can deflect it far far better).

Was this ever tried before I got to the forums? Anyone willing to give it a try at some point?

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Hojyn

Post subject: Living Metal

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:39 am

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Quote (Ilushia @ 12 June 2006 (10:44))

Yes, I also find it quite strange than an Abattoir or an Orb can shrug off Deathstrike missiles but will die under concentrated AT fire.

So I'd propose the following: TK weapons roll for damage as normal, however the Living Metal unit gets a normal save -AND- Reinforced Armor save against each damage the TK weapon would inflict. I feel this will make TK weapons a bit more useful against Necrons, and do a lot to balance out the 'Faster weapons are better' effect of Living Metal.

Anyone willing to give it a try at some point?

I am, but I fear this will make the Abattoir and the Orb weaker than they already are (as you all know I think they are a bit overpriced and/or underpowered).

The present Living Metal rule is good because it allows them to survive the first and second turns (almost) unscathed, even though they break too easily in my opinion. Your proposa would mean they would have less chances of reaching the late stages of the game.

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Ilushia

Post subject: Living Metal

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:56 am

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
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Quote (Hojyn @ 12 June 2006 (11:39))

Quote (Ilushia @ 12 June 2006 (10:44))

Well... Sortof yes and sortof no. They gain 4+ RA saves against each hit from the TK weapons. So, for instance, 3 Shadowswords open up on an Abattoir. 3 shots at 2+ later you have 3 hits. Under current rules that means an average of 1.5 DC done to it. Under my suggestion you roll 3d3, average of 6, then save against each, then save against each failure thanks to RA. That means you average STILL 1.5 damage. It's just that the TK weapons have the potential to equal, or even beat, comperably priced AT weapons when firing at Living Metal targets under that scenario.

It does weaken them a bit, maybe, as there's the potential to critically flub your saves and manage to take like 8 DC worth of damage in 1 turn. But that can happen even now (Refrence watching the Aeonic Orb destroying itself under fire from TLDs in the last game I played against Corey). This would also mean units which are built around TK weapons would be slightly less knee-capped against them. To me, this doesn't make them much worse defense-wise then, say, an Eldar Phantom (in fact they're BETTER then a Phantom under these rules, since the Phantom is likely to take 2-3 damage from a single failed save, while the Necrons still only take 1).

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corey3750

Post subject: Living Metal

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:48 am

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The problem is, I'd have to DRASTICALLY reduce their cost, or find yet another special rule to up their survivablity.

massed AT fire is better against prety much everyone than few big TK shots.

What did I use to get the Imperator down? Most of it was the massed fire of the vast majority of my army, stripping down your shields, and getting through the occasional hit by dint of sheer mass of firepower.

What's the best way to penetrate the Holofields of Eldar? Massed AT fire. After all, they get a save to negate all the damage from a TK attack, so massed AT fire is better for penetration.

the Living Metal does not give them the same surviabilty an Imperial Titan has. After all, a Warlord gets 6 free hits w/o Blast Markers that can be endlessly regenerated (and one regenerates for free at the end of every turn). Imperial Titan's early game defenses are "sure things"

Necron Titans wrack up blast markers FAST, especially with Disrupt weapons. In fact, an IG artillery company can break either in a single fire action. It's even possible that first barrage could destroy an Aeonic Orb with a Crit. The Necron WE defense is entirely luck.

I've been tempted from time to time to sneak that self repair back into the game, but I've managed to hold myself back. :cool:

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Hojyn

Post subject: Living Metal

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:38 am

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Quote (corey3750 @ 13 June 2006 (00:48))

I've been tempted from time to time to sneak that self repair back into the game, but I've managed to hold myself back. ? :cool:

Well, you could use the "Regenerate" rule from the Tyranid list. Now that would increase the survivability of Necron WE! :alien:

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Ilushia

Post subject: Living Metal

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:03 am

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
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I'm not entirely sure that you would have to drastically reduce cost or increase survivability. It would make them probably a bit more fragile against specific units (Deathstrike Missiles for instance), but it'd still take ~24 hits with any kind of weapon to take them out. As it is it takes ~24 with normal and MW shots. And ~12 with TK weapons. The only serious difference would be that TK weapons would do X damage instead of 1. Infact, as near as I can tell even with that 'penalty' applied to them they'll very rarely loose more then 1-2 DC from sustained fire from an entire 3-man unit of Shadowswords or an Imperial Warlord. Comparatively a Warlord is likely to see all of it's shields stripped by the shadowswords and a very good chance to lose 1-2 DC. And if it's already lost it's void-shields? Well it's just had half it's DC evaporate instantly.

If you're really worried about survivability why not let them regenerate 1 DC in each end-turn phase? That's roughly 4 more attacks which have to connect, on average, to take it down. It also, IMHO, fits quite well with the style of Living Metal, self repairing and self correcting armor. You start to hammer on it and you'd better kill it or it will come back to life! You could go for the Tyranid regen, but I'd go for just 1 free DC each turn. DC is significantly better then void shields, for most purposes, as you get actual saves to prevent losing them.

Mostly it's just that it feels very odd to me for the TK weapons to become that much worse. As for the Emperor: The Aeonic Orb and the Pylon did quite a lot of damage to it. Especially on that last turn. Yes the massed AT fire stripped off it's shields, but once the shields are gone TK fire will kill them vastly faster then AT fire. You need something like 4 AT hits to equal 1 TK hit on average. Mostly it's just that you only had 2 TK units on the board (One of which was very very nice, mind). And those two still did, I think, more damage then everything else put into it put together (The Aeonic Orb did... 7 or 8 damage, and the Pylon did 3-4 I think). I will agree that AT fire tends to be better against Eldar, mostly because they get the ability to save against TK weapons, but a single failed save against a TK weapon usually spells instant-death for smaller Eldar titans, and even big ones are likely to lose 1/3-1/2 of their DC in a single blow.

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Hojyn

Post subject: Living Metal

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:11 am

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Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:52 am
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Location: Brest - France

Quote (Hojyn @ 13 June 2006 (06:38))

Quote (corey3750 @ 13 June 2006 (00:48))

I've been tempted from time to time to sneak that self repair back into the game, but I've managed to hold myself back. ? :cool:

Well, you could use the "Regenerate" rule from the Tyranid list. Now that would increase the survivability of Necron WE! ? :alien:

Well, I'm quoting myself, go figure... :(8:

Anyway, I actually don't think Necron WE really need increased survivability. They are fine as they are and, with lucky dice rolls, can be a nightmare for the opponent (one of my Monoliths once made more than 15 successful saves in one game!).

What they need is a means to break less easily, especially the Harvester Engines. With only 6DC and no shields, they usually break on the first turn... Staying behind cover helps them a bit, but what with artillery, skimmers, teleporting units, aircraft, etc., "in cover" usually doesn't last long.

How about saying that Living Metal units ignore BMs received from being shot at? Or perhaps only Necron WE, as this would make Monoliths even tougher than they are now...

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Ilushia

Post subject: Living Metal

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:18 am

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
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Perhaps make Living Metal ignore Disrupt weapons? I dunno about ingoring 'come under fire' affects... Even Imperial Titans with Void Shields don't get that, and you can break a Reaver just as easily as a Necron WE with artillery. The only difference is Necron WE suck up blast-markers from Disrupt while Imperial titans don't.

That'd make it harder to break Necron WEs. You'd need a LOT of artillery (Or really bad luck with dice rolls) to break them without the Disrupt effect. I will agree that with Disrupt it's kinda easy to break them.

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Ilushia

Post subject: Living Metal

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:22 pm

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
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What bothers me about Living Metal isn't so much the way it makes AT weapons as good (Or better) then TK weapons. It's the way that it makes some TK weapons VASTLY better then they otherwise would be compared to other TK weapons. 2x Volcano Cannons lose out to 2x Phantom Pulsars. Deathstrikes lose to Melta-Cannons. Basically any TK weapon which does more hits beats any one which hits harder under the current system. Which makes multi-hit TK weapons extremely powerful compared to single-hit high-damage TK weapons. Aeonic Orbs are virtually worthless against Necron WEs. As are Shadowswords when not in large groups. TK weapons which can inflict 2+ hits will ALWAYS be better then those which can inflict only 1 hit, even if the 1-hit-only one does D6 while the 2+ hits do 1 damage normally. It just doesn't feel right to me, it makes units built around TK weapons vastly weaker or stronger then they should be against Necron WEs and Monoliths.

Functionally the change I suggest won't seriously change the way the army plays, I think. At least, all the ways I can think of to test it seem to show that the Necrons won't result in taking massively more damage except from certain very specific weapon systems (Think Deathstrikes and Vortex Missiles) which have very high TK ability but only 1 shot normally. And even then it's not a huge difference (You go from taking 0-1 damage to 1-2 damage on average from those weapons). If it's a major concern just make Necron WEs regenerate 1 DC in each end phase, like Imperial Shields do.

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corey3750

Post subject: Living Metal

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:07 am

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AT weapons are NOT more useful than TK weapons. It's just that there are far more AT weapons than TK weapons in every army.

But let me see if I can put it to you how I see it.

What is the single most effective weapons against the Necron?

Answer: the Eldar Titan Pulsar

Now, who ever would have thought that the Eldar (who were created for the express purpose of fighting the Necron) would be likely to have the single most effective weapon against them... hmmm.

What would the 2nd most effective weapon be?

Cobra Formations D-Cannons. There seems to be a pattern here with Eldar having the most effective Anti-Necron WE weapons... :o0

And of course there is the fact that prety much every other titan has a way to shrug off TK weapons. In fact, the Imperials and Orks still have the best way of doing just that.

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Ilushia

Post subject: Living Metal

Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:31 am

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I... Would not consider the Imperial titans to have the best anti-TK defenses out there. Once the Void Shields are gone (fairly easy to do with some concentrated AT fire) they're virtually without defense against TK weapons.

But that's beside the point. I get that you want Necrons to be highly resilient to TK weapons, and I'm good with that. It's cool. It fits their style of reactive armor which virtually ignores powerful weapons. What I don't like is that it makes units built around their TK ability and priced comparative to it weaker then I think they should be. I might be wrong about this. You and Hojyn certainly have had far more experience in that area then I have, having only played against Necrons once. But it just feels off to me. Functionally the difference between what I suggest and what's in place is fairly small, it just allows a bit more variation in how much damage weapon-systtems can POTENTIALLY do. And it helps a handful of seriously depleated weapon systems (like Deathstrikes and Wreckers) quite a bit.

Maybe it's just me? Maybe I'm the one who feels this is wrong and other people like it? It just feels a lot like the player is paying for abilities for units, then the enemy tells them that those abilities are worthless. In function with my suggestion 3 hits from AT weapons and a 3 result on a TK(D3) weapon are exactly the same. It's just a stylistic difference which I feel would better help the 'feel' of the army. The attack isn't any less powerful, it's just that the defense of the Necrons is vastly superior to that of any normal unit.

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corey3750

Post subject: Living Metal

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:28 am

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Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:02 pm
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you don't think that a 100% effective, eternally renewable defense qualifies as the best?

It may seem artifical, but I really think they need a way to survive the first turn.

TK weapons are not less effective. They are, in fact, more effective. There just aren't a lot of them in most armies, and you aren't going to one shot them with a lucky roll. It's still possible, but it would take a series of unlucky rolls. Like someone hitting an orb, getting a crit, and most of the crit shots penetrating... :80:

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Hojyn

Post subject: Living Metal

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:02 am

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To be honest, Ilushia, and although I see your point, the more I think about it, the less I think it is a major problem.

When you face the AMTL or an all-tank Guard army, you AP fire will be wasted. When you face the Siegemasters, there won't be many opportunities for you to make good use of your AT fire. When you face the Necrons, your TK weapons will be a lot less efficient. Oh, and when you face the Eldar, you'll just have to admit that 2/3 of your shots (TK or not) are going to just do nothing at all to their Titans.

Armies have inbuilt strength and weaknesses. Virtual immunity (is the world we're living in... ahem

) to TK weapons is one of the strengths of the Necrons.

And I'll say it again, but I think the Orb and Abattoir are already too vulnerable to breaking (by virtue of usually being the only target on turn 1), so please let's not make them more "fragile".

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Ilushia

Post subject: Living Metal

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:39 am

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
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Eh, you're probably right. Most likely just comes down to my perception of what's going on...

On the subject of Imperial Titan Shields: Eternally renewable, guaranteed success, defenses rock. But not when they vanish the first time you take ANY kind of hit with no chance to avoid it. Throw virtually anything at a Warlord and you can strip it's shields off fairly efficiently. Russ Company doubles forwards, fires on a warlord, gets 10x 5+, 10x 6+, AT shots. That averages 5 shields dropped. Retain with Deathstrikes, sustain into the Warlord, there's a very high chance both hit and do 5-7 DC worth of damage straight through their armor and their 1 remaining shield... And you roll reasonably well (A 9 or better) and the Warlord is just flat out toast! Comparatively a Tau Manta is likely to only lose 4-5 DC to the same exact attacks (Roughly 1 to the Tank Company and 3-4 to the Deathstrikes depending on how well the IG player and the Tau player roll exactly). An Eldar titan has a hefty chance to just laugh at both Deathstrikes (And a reasonable chance to get blown to itty bitty pieces by them, so I'd consider Holofields to actually be OK, since most Eldar titans get ass for armor without them). Chaos and Orks are more or less the same. orks might be slightly better off, since they have more shields to start with, so it's harder to do a 'Fire, retain' to strip them all and do mass damage. Rallying for shields is sweet, but doesn't do much good if the enemy can fire-retain-fire to kill you in 2 activations. Necrons, comparatively, will take around 2 damage, again depending on the luck of individuals.

While Void Shields are definitely wickedly-awesome defenses... They're just fantastically easy to get rid of in my opinion. Get into base-to-base and they're worthless. Gun them down with massed AT fire, even a single formation's worth, then hit them with a high-TK weapon. Yes, Deathstrikes are probably the highest TK value in the game. But for instance you could just as easily gun them down with, say, a unit of Heavy Destroyers coming out of a Monolith, and follow up with an Aeonic Orb. That should drop ALL their shields and do D6 TK damage to them, totally unsaveable.

Anywho. You two are almost certainly right about the Necrons being OK in terms of ability to resist TK fire and all.

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corey3750

Post subject: Living Metal

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:09 am

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Such things would be effective, but look at what you are using to take that down.

Sure, a Leman Russ company could strip the shields off a titan, and you could follow up with Deathstrikes.. but how many points did you just throw into that little venture? About as much, or more than the Warlord's point value, and even then they kill isn't a sure thing.

The heavy destroyers/Orb combo would surely hurt.. but the likelyhood of them actually destroying the Warlord is vanishingly small.

And if they didn't kill you, you Marshal and start getting back shields.

I think your perception is based on the army you played. Titans are great, but having nothing but WE in your army list seriously deprives you of very effective and powerful support units. Using infantry and vehicles to screen your titans would make it much harder, or more risky for your opponents to swan up to deliver that sort of pounding. :(8:

Having played several games against Space Marines, IG, and even Eldar, I can tell you that the Living Metal WE aren't really any more survivable than anyone elses, and in fact are less survivable than a lot of them.

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"Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus

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