Hit and Run |
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Ilushia
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Post subject: Hit and Run  Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 6:13 pm |
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This interests me, people seem to be discussing the Spirit Stone rule a lot lately... But I've seen no discussions of Hit and Run I can remember at all. To me Hit and Run feels like the most broken thing in the Eldar list, allowing them to bring outstandingly large amounts of fire-power to bear against enemies, and even potentially letting them run enemy formations right into the ground with ease. Anyone have any thoughts on how balanced this ability actually is? My gut reaction would be that such a power is extremely unbalancing, allowing fast-moving units to actually out-pace enemies running away from them... And allowing, fairly easily, for Eldar to run entire formations into the ground (Swooping Hawks are awesome for this IMHO. I can explain why if you want.)
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semajnollissor
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Post subject: Hit and Run Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:02 pm |
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Ilushia
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Post subject: Hit and Run Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:27 pm |
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This is one not quite exactly on the same line, quite but also dealing with Hit and Run... If you win an assault with a formation deploying via Air Assault, are you allowed to consolidate back into the aircraft? The rules say you can consolidate into vehicles IIRC, and there's nothing forbidding a unit from re-boarding an aircraft as far as I can remember... This would allow for some very scary, and rather neat, assaults via aircraft carrying units which would otherwise have trouble reaching melee with the enemy.
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dptdexys
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Post subject: Hit and Run Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:35 pm |
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Yes you are allowed to consolidate back into an aircraft but the aircraft cannot then dis-engage and must remain grounded until the end of the next turn.
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Ilushia
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Post subject: Hit and Run Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:09 pm |
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Where are you finding this? I can't find anything at all pertaining to the rules about boarding aircraft other then that they have to come in, land, and the unit has to move up to them and board them. The end-of-turn departure action is supposed to be automatic as I understand it and not really an 'action' on the part of the vehicle...
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semajnollissor
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Post subject: Hit and Run Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:14 pm |
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I believe there is a specific rule that prevents ground units from disembarking and then embarking onto an air-transport in the same turn. I'm not sure if the rule applies to the ground formation or to the aircraft itself. It should be under the air-transport rules.
I do remember that there was some loop-hole in the rules that let you use two aircraft to do what you described, but I doubt that was the intention of the rules, just a consequence of how they were worded.
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Ilushia
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Post subject: Hit and Run Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:25 pm |
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Well... The rules say that if the unit wants to it can embark another unit at the time it drops off the prior one. But the rules ALSO say that as soon as it lands it counts as a Speed 0 vehicle... And War Engine Transports specify that units can board them by moving up to them. So there seems to be a bit of conflict here. Nothing in the Air Transport section specifically forbids this kind of boarding. The only thing which seems to even remotely indicate that the unit can't board it directly is refrence to the way it drops off/picks up units. But once it's landed those rules don't seem to apply to it any more, according to the same rules.
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Markconz
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Post subject: Hit and Run Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 11:59 pm |
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| Quote (semajnollissor @ 11 May 2006 (21:14)) | I believe there is a specific rule that prevents ground units from disembarking and then embarking onto an air-transport in the same turn. I'm not sure if the rule applies to the ground formation or to the aircraft itself. It should be under the air-transport rules.
I do remember that there was some loop-hole in the rules that let you use two aircraft to do what you described, but I doubt that was the intention of the rules, just a consequence of how they were worded. |
The actual; ruling is in the EA FAQ dated April 14 2004. (In the vault on the SG site). The ruling is under section 1.12.9.
In short a WE transport loses its consolidation or disengagement move if a formation embarks on it during the conslidation move phase.
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thurse
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Post subject: Hit and Run Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 12:55 pm |
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IMHO the hit and run ability is what really creates the flavour of the list. I really wouldn' like it to be changed.
In fact there are two rules in it :
- shooting before a move : it's clearly not unbalanced for me : as eldar weapons have quite a short range, you often have to double to use the rule and the -1 to hit really hurts, especially for pulse weapons or if your opponent is in cover.
- full move consolidation. I've never found it overpowered, except for an army using jetbikes en masse, because of the 35cm consolidation. But I'd rather see this problem solved by reducing jetbikes armor to 5+ or increasing their cost.
Cheers
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Hit and Run Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 3:30 pm |
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| Quote (Ilushia @ 11 May 2006 (22:09)) | | Where are you finding this? I can't find anything at all pertaining to the rules about boarding aircraft other then that they have to come in, land, and the unit has to move up to them and board them. The end-of-turn departure action is supposed to be automatic as I understand it and not really an 'action' on the part of the vehicle... |
FAQ 1.12.
Any army can mount a WE as part of a consolidation move, but the WE cannot move.
The restrictions on aircraft that were boarded during a consolidation are based on the fact that aircraft are treated as speed 0 WEs. They have to wait around to be boarded, so no disengage is allowed.
As far as the normal land and dismount/mount that an aircraft can take, it's one or the other. You cannot land and dismount one formation and mount up a second at the same time. I figure you probably know that, but from the post above, I thought it might need to be stated.
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Ilushia
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Post subject: Hit and Run Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:33 pm |
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Alright then, thanks for clearing that up. Heh. I thought I had looked through the FAQ for that answer, guess I was looking in the wrong place (Under Aircraft instead of War Engines!). Does have some interesting implications for an all-WE mounted force... Too bad the only guys who can do that right now are Orks, effectively.
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Hit and Run Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:57 pm |
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Actually, Ork battlefortresses are treated differently. Their army rules state explicitly that battlefortresses are treated as normal transport and can only transport units from their formation (as opposed to a normal WE that can transport any unit from anyformation as long as the whole formation fits inside). So they would get the normal consolidation moves also.
This was put in there to prevent an Ork mob from buying a fortresses, then the fortresses transporting additional mobs. It basically allowed a free combined assault and the force could then divide up to accomplish different tactical objectives. I would suggest similar restrictions for any force that could take a WE as attached transport.
OTOH, a Nurgle L&D force could all be mounted in Plague towers (which aren't attached), so it's still possible.
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Ilushia
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Post subject: Hit and Run Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 5:47 pm |
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I'd completely forgotten about that one. Heh. It's got some interesting implications about the AMTL list as well. Given a Corvus Assault Pod can carry a unit of Praetorians. I'm picturing a Warlord with a Devotional Bell, Corvus and Melta-Cannon running around getting into assaults, dropping off the praetorians so they can fight, then having them consolidate back into the war-engine. Since it takes 16(!) bases to actually prevent them from being able to get out, they're likely to be able to do a lot of damage. Not sure it'd work very well, but it'd be entertaining to see someone try to put to use.
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Hit and Run Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 7:15 pm |
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It would be fairly easy to avoid but in a big game where the enemy can't easily get completely away it would do serious damage.
Then again, it would be over 1000 points, so it should.
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jfrazell
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Post subject: Hit and Run Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 1:23 pm |
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I would strongly object to any change to the hit and run. Its a core factor for making the eldar both unique and effective.
Lets face it, Eldar are fast but weak. We don't have the range of Tau or Guard weapons, the surviveability of guard, or the hordes of orks/nids. Our optimum range tends to be around 10 cm to 30 cm. Eldar need the ability to get, cry havoc in FF or CC, and then get out again.
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