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What are the issues with Spirit Stones?
Fuzzymiles
 Post subject: What are the issues with Spirit Stones?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:28 pm 
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So, we are looking at something like:

Embolden
During the Rally Phase, the Eldar player may remove one extra BM from a unit that successfully rallies. ?He may do this once per Farseer that is on the table during the Rally Phase.

A) only during the Rally Phase, not during Marshal actions.

B) once per unit per Farseers any extras are wasted.

C) Farseers can help either their own unit or another unit, not both.

Fuzzymiles

P.S. Warlocks have the Farsight ability and count as Farseers, so yes, they would be able to use the ability. ?They are, after all, dozens if not hundreds of powerful Eldar seers bound in a Wraithconstruct with Farseers driving it.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: What are the issues with Spirit Stones?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:52 am 
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I think the Farseer aspect would be good for Ulwethe and should be tested with them - however I don't think it fits with Beil Tan.

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Squared
 Post subject: What are the issues with Spirit Stones?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:46 am 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 19 Feb. 2006 (03:52))
I think the Farseer aspect would be good for Ulwethe and should be tested with them - however I don't think it fits with Beil Tan.

I agree, I think it would punish people who prefer aspects over guardians.  As it is I have to take a tolken guardian formation just to get the farseer abilities on the board.

Could farseers, or at least their warlock bodyguard (with some, not all, of the farseer abilities) be given as an upgrade to the aspect hosts?  Probably too radical of an idea but oh well...

The formations that people keep saying need this ability are all of the all armor formations.  Maybe spirit stones or a modified version of those could be given to those formations only?

^2
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Markconz
 Post subject: What are the issues with Spirit Stones?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:16 am 
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Quote (Squared @ 19 Feb. 2006 (03:46))
The formations that people keep saying need this ability are all of the all armor formations. ?Maybe spirit stones or a modified version of those could be given to those formations only?

In addition that would fit well with the 40k fluff (IIRC?). The falcons/wave serpents etc are particularly hard to finish off in that. I agree it is the small armoured formations that need it the most.

Perhaps if spirit stones only applied to formations consisting entirely of armoured vehicles and/or war engines? (or just armoured vehicle formations?)

It is another idea which has some merit I think.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: What are the issues with Spirit Stones?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:46 am 
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Would be by far the simplist change!
But then how would it apply to fomrations that were infantry and vehicles, or LV?

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: What are the issues with Spirit Stones?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:46 am 
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Gee, wish I'd thought of that :cool:

http://www.epic40k.co.uk/epicomm....6;st=10

look toward the bottom of the page.

My second alternative would be to change the rule to the following:
Spirit Stones:
Eldar vehicle crews are often assisted by the spirits of dead Eldar, which reside in a large spirit stone integrated into the wraithbone matrix of the vehicles. Because of this, Eldar vehicle crews can better focus on the overall battle, and are less prone to panicking in the face of oncoming fire.
Any Eldar formation that consists entirely of non-fearless, non-war engine vehicles (LV or AV) may remove one extra blast marker whenever they rally in the end phase.

But, no one said anything about it, so I dropped it. Obviously, if this is what people want, I'm on board. (and by the way, I'm not married to the particulars, like if LV should get the ability, or if formations that are simply more than 50% vehicles could be elligible, etc.)

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Fuzzymiles
 Post subject: What are the issues with Spirit Stones?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:07 am 
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Me, I like versatility, so I don't really like just giving the only extra BM removing ability in the entire Eldar army to the small tank formations. ?If you do that you are basically saying that Eldar C&C is worse than even Orks. :( I completely understand that people don't want to be forced to take Guardian formations and I think it is a bad idea to force people to take Guardians, which is why I originally put forth that Exarchs should have the Embolden ability as well. ?And while, yes, you can get several Exarchs in your army, you are paying 25 points a piece and 300 points for the formation to drop them in. ?All I am saying is that I always like versatility and I like the option that provides some versatility over one that is just a chopped down version of the old rule.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: What are the issues with Spirit Stones?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:23 am 
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Orks lack inspiring :)
It doesn't mean Eldar C&C is worse, just different - they have a better strategy rating and lots of small flexible formations, however they don't want to die and the army is rather brittle if used like an Ork horde :)

Just for vehicles sounds good, the guardians and aspects don't break anywhere as easily so on the face of it it seems okay.

Still would like to see it as a cratworld specific rule though :)
Ulwethe get the embolden idea, Biel Tan with their martial outlook with the vehicle idea (are they noted for their vehicles, or is it aspects more?), Siam Haine could have the Jetbikes getting the boost and so on.

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MC23
 Post subject: What are the issues with Spirit Stones?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:49 am 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 19 Feb. 2006 (03:23))
Still would like to see it as a cratworld specific rule though :)
Ulwethe get the embolden idea, Biel Tan with their martial outlook with the vehicle idea (are they noted for their vehicles, or is it aspects more?), Siam Haine could have the Jetbikes getting the boost and so on.

I am dead against this. Eldar should be Eldar. Craftworlds do not vary that much to warrant speciality recover rules. Even at the onset it was decided that when it came to the Eldar composition of Craftworlds it would be more composition shifting than enything else. Nothing to make new rules for a whole army. Jervis said this and I have always agreed.

The other way of looking at things is that nothing changes the Eldar paths. An aspect from one craftworld is still like any aspect from anyplace else, same goes for Farseers. The followers of these paths may be deployed differently in EPIC but it will naver change what they do.

While I'm on this I also want to bring up the issue of "upgrade" to buy Spirit Stones. In EPIC, if you can't see it modeled on the table you can't have it. This was brought up a long time ago when it was discussed. There should always be quick visual recognition of what a unit/formation is and therefor what it can do.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: What are the issues with Spirit Stones?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:21 am 
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Sticking very small green stuff spirit stones on each infantry unit and vehicle with the upgrade :)

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wargame_insomniac
 Post subject: What are the issues with Spirit Stones?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:10 pm 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 19 Feb. 2006 (03:52))
I think the Farseer aspect would be good for Ulwethe and should be tested with them - however I don't think it fits with Beil Tan.

Hi

I have been browsing these eldar threads. I have n't contributed so far because I have mainly played with/against SM/IG/Orks/L&TD and therefore cant comment on the details of the prposed rule changes.

However I don't want to see a whole load of Eldar armies painted green & white all using the Ulthwe list because they are forced into taking loads of guardians to benefit from the Farseers embolden.

An Aspect heavy Biel Tann list should be both feasible and preferable after these rule changes, else the rule changes have failed to allow for the character of the Craftworld.

Cheers

James

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Markconz
 Post subject: What are the issues with Spirit Stones?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:07 pm 
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Quote (wargame_insomniac @ 20 Feb. 2006 (13:10))
An Aspect heavy Biel Tann list should be both feasible and preferable after these rule changes, else the rule changes have failed to allow for the character of the Craftworld.

Agreed, that was why I suggested the leader ability for the exarchs - as a balancing factor. It still doesn't really address the major problem though - embolden, transferable leadership etc is another Farseer dependent ability. As if there were not enough of them already.

At the moment I am preferrring MC23's Agility idea mentioned in another thread (or rather my own more limited version of it - ie eldar formations with 35cm or more movement do not recieve blast markers for coming under fire).

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Moscovian
 Post subject: What are the issues with Spirit Stones?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:11 pm 
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The Embolden function has one unit benefit from another's ability.  I can't think of anything in the game that has this type of relationship (with the exception of the Commander and SC).  It also feels weird to have a formation of three fire prisms able to take away a blast marker when the unit 'responsible' for the removal of the blast marker could be on the other side of the board.  Heck, even if the unit was 15cm away it would still feel wrong.  I think it would bring the same type of resentment .

I agree with MC23 that Eldar should be Eldar.  It eliminates a lot of confusion down the road (of course somebody should look at the Vampire in Saim Hann and say the same thing   :/ ).  It also makes more sense for the game.

Somebody else proposed the idea that the tank formations be the only ones that benefit from the Spirit Stones.  It has some merit to it: the formations that really need the help benefit from the rule, the ones that everybody are concerned with (the front line troops if you will) don't.

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: What are the issues with Spirit Stones?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:20 pm 
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Can I suggest that, whatever the choice, that MC23 and Tepoc decide on a specific rule that we can playtest? Then, we should be allowed to playtest that rule for enough time (2 months?) that the rule can be given a good shakedown.

All the discussion about various solutions is great, and more-than-likely any one of them will solve the main problem with the list, but how about a solid rule that we can test over and over again? I think it should be one of the champions that decides, since they're supposed to coordinate these kind of things.

So please, pick one (any one, really), write it up, then turn us loose for a month or two. Also, I would suggest cross-posting the rule over at the SG forums, and maybe on the other forums that do testing for other lists, to get the widest variety of people involved.
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Moscovian
 Post subject: What are the issues with Spirit Stones?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:56 pm 
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I second that proposal. :cool:

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