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Warhammer point system
Markconz
 Post subject: Warhammer point system
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:39 am 
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Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 04 Nov. 2005 (11:55))

Re: Empire swordsmen. They have +1 WS and +1 I over spearmen.


Uh-huh. So they have only 1,5 of the 5 boosts a DE spearman has but still they cost the same. Of course, if you give Empire spearmen a shield, so do they. Without the WS and I boost. So obviously the fight in ranks is worth something.

What are the 5 boosts a DE spearmen has over Swordsmen??

I count 3 factors where DE spearmen are better than empire swordsmen.

DE spearmen - faster move, fight in two ranks unless they charge, +1 LD.

Swordsmen have 2 factors better than DE spearmen.

Empire Swordsmen over DE spearmen - 4+ armour save (compared to elves 5+). Detachment rules.

GW designers think these factors balance out, I think they are right.

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Mojarn Piett
 Post subject: Warhammer point system
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:39 pm 
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Quote (Markconz @ 06 Nov. 2005 (02:39))
What are the 5 boosts a DE spearmen has over Swordsmen??

I count 3 factors where DE spearmen are better than empire swordsmen.

I said they have 1,5 of the 5 boosts DE spearmen have over Empire spearmen: +1WS and +1I (vs +2 I of the DE).


DE spearmen - faster move, fight in two ranks unless they charge, +1 LD.

Swordsmen have 2 factors better than DE spearmen.

Empire Swordsmen over DE spearmen - 4+ armour save (compared to elves 5+). Detachment rules.


As for the shield, they lose the spear (and hence fight in ranks) to gain it.


GW designers think these factors balance out, I think they are right.


I don't. I really don't think the detachment rules are worth as much as the stat boosts the DE have. I guess we have to leave it at that.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Warhammer point system
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:43 am 
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Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 06 Nov. 2005 (17:39))
I guess we have to leave it at that.

Well what I have been at pains to point out is that although the DE have boosted stats - what do those actually mean in reality?

For instance you listed DE spearmen's increased BS as though that is actually worth something (it is not), and you seemed oblivious to the fact that many of the other stat boosts have marginal benefits (but taken together they may be worth an extra point or so). I was just trying to explain some of the logic behind what may at first glance seem 'wrong'.

To use your own line of argument, I too have close to 20 years wargaming experience, in many different systems, and like to think I have a pretty good idea about points to power ratios as well. ? However, I also believe that rulebook knowledge is no substitute for actual play experience... theory is all very well, but nothing beats putting it to practise.

Also I think contextual points are important and a good idea - they are used by other wargames I play such as WRG ancients. GW has not always used them - but the switch to them is a good idea IMO. ?For instance GW in 40k used to cost a lascannon at 50 points, regardless of which army/unit used it. Now they cost it differently depending on the army and unit. Eg 15 points to equip a tactical marine with one and only one per squad, 30 points for a devastator marine and up to 4 per squad. The logic is that a tactical squad will get less use from it than a devastator squad. Tacticals likely will more often be on the move, will waste the rest of their firepower if they fire at aroured targets, won't be using the LC range to its advantage as often, will have to sacrifice their mobility to use it etc etc. ?In summary, the devastator squad will sit at long range and use the LC as its main weapon for most turns of a game. The tactical squad carries its LC 'in case', to provide extra tactical flexibility. Another example is that guardsmen are cheaper to equip with a LC a than a marine, because the guardsmen lascannon dies more easily, and is less accurate.

Anyway like you say, I don't think any agreement is going to be reached here, and I don't really understand why we are wasting so much epic time on this :p ?so lets leave it ?:;):




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