Manta - what's your thoughts? |
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Honda
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Post subject: Manta - what's your thoughts?  Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:28 pm |
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Ok, let me put my question another way. There seems to be an assumption that just because something is big that it must be tough when it comes down to close in fighting.
In my mind, that is the same as saying "a C-5A should be shootier the closer you get to it".
So, I only point this out because I don't really see size and the MMD's capabilities as a gunship correlating to high FF values.
Also, if you look at comments on Mantas in IA3, the Tau are quick to pull them away from the action, which I would assume is because they are high $$ assets set up to take a lot of superficial damage.
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Steele
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Post subject: Manta - what's your thoughts? Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:08 pm |
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| Quote (Honda @ 21 Oct. 2005 (19:28)) | Ok, let me put my question another way. There seems to be an assumption that just because something is big that it must be tough when it comes down to close in fighting.
In my mind, that is the same as saying "a C-5A should be shootier the closer you get to it".
So, I only point this out because I don't really see size and the MMD's capabilities as a gunship correlating to high FF values.
Also, if you look at comments on Mantas in IA3, the Tau are quick to pull them away from the action, which I would assume is because they are high $$ assets set up to take a lot of superficial damage. |
But who said that it isn?t? I don?t own IA3 and therefore have not the background info as you guys share. But even if they pull it away, it?s a logical consequence. But in the case that it can?t pull away, it should have the possibility to defend itself properly, but thats only my opinion. And just for another the logs - the Manta should represent the Tau Variant of a Titan, shouldn?t it be a thing nearly as powerful as a Titan? And should we take all literally what either SG or Forgeworld throws at us?
Cheers!
Steele
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Honda
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Post subject: Manta - what's your thoughts? Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:36 pm |
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1. Re: IA3 Fluff, your comment is noted and is a fair response. What I was trying to point out is that the fluff around titans is very clear about how brutal they are close up. In the case of the MMD, we don't see similar commentary. The fluff is there for us to use or discard, but there should be some justification if our choices don't "match up".
You also ask another fair question regarding the fact that if a MMD is as big as a titan, should it be as tough? JMO, I'm not so sure. The reason I say that is that the Tau don't necessarily use brute force to make something "tough". Sometimes they do things like put a big gun on a mobile platform which sits outside your effective range and blows you away. In it's way, it is tough, just a different kind of tough.
I comment the way that I do so that we consider these things when we are making "tough" Tau units. They shouldn't necessarily be the same kind of tough as a tough Imperial unit.
Good discussion and I like hearing how others think on this. Personally, at this point in time, it's not very likely that I'd even field a MMD as it's a lot of points (and $$) and I need different capabilities in my lists.
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Honda
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Manta - what's your thoughts? Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:30 am |
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Excellent point ... the Manta was originally intended to be the Tau Titan ... that is the way I remember it in concept fluff. The Tau way of war includes CAS instead of Artillery and they don't use Titans like the Humans, Orks & Eldar ... 
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clausewitz
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Post subject: Manta - what's your thoughts? Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:24 am |
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Just a brief point. Tau FF values are all one point worse than they should be. This was deliberately done to make assaults (even FF) an unattractive option for the Tau. As the character of the army is that they shoot their enemy to death rather than assault them. In previous versions of the list the Tau were pretty good at FF and this meant that they did a fair amount of assaulting. This was considered uncharacterfull and thus the stats were changed to encourage the Tau to avoid assaults.
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Steele
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Post subject: Manta - what's your thoughts? Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:21 pm |
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| Quote (clausewitz @ 24 Oct. 2005 (12:24)) | | Just a brief point. ?Tau FF values are all one point worse than they should be. ?This was deliberately done to make assaults (even FF) an unattractive option for the Tau. ?As the character of the army is that they shoot their enemy to death rather than assault them. ?In previous versions of the list the Tau were pretty good at FF and this meant that they did a fair amount of assaulting. ?This was considered uncharacterfull and thus the stats were changed to encourage the Tau to avoid assaults. |
Yes, that is all well known. I wouldn?t like to assault any formations on my behalf. And it should stay at that, but the Manta ,beeing a High Value asset, and the only Transport Craft with a Large Capacity that allows a decent Planetfall can?t stay out of assault Range - so should IMHO, have a better defense.
Cheers!
Steele
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clausewitz
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Post subject: Manta - what's your thoughts? Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:06 pm |
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On reflection increasing the Manta's FF to 4+ would not be unbalancing (IMO).
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Manta - what's your thoughts? Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:33 pm |
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That may work ... as if you do an assault landing you'll probably/may be close to the enemy ... And remember the Manta is the Tau Titan ... 
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asaura
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Post subject: Manta - what's your thoughts? Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:50 pm |
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If you make the Moray and/or Manta better in FF, you take away from their flavor. 6+ FF is a good way to make sure they are not used as big supporting fire platforms like Titans. Make them 4+ or even 5+ and you start to win any nearby assaults. That's not what we want.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Manta - what's your thoughts? Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:00 pm |
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Yes ... Titans are fire support platforms not for Close Combat, IMO ... good point ...
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clausewitz
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Post subject: Manta - what's your thoughts? Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:05 pm |
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I agree, thats why I made my original post about Tau low FF values. ?But I do think Steele has a point about the Manta being perhaps too easy to beat by an enemy FF assault with the Manta's FF of 5+ (FF 5+ @ DC8 is just under 3 hits on average). ?With FF of 4+ for the Manta (4 hits average) its not really a huge improvement that would see the Tau changing to an assault strategy, but would make the Manta slightly more dangerous for the opponent to assault.
I agree that the Moray's FF should remain 6+.
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baronpiero
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Post subject: Manta - what's your thoughts? Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:52 pm |
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I played the Manta in a lot of games so far, and didn't found it that weak in assaults (i.e. I've seen no evidence of it yet in a game).
My opponents didn't found it that easy to pull off already (especially Marine players):
- with DC8 a Manta will still score 2.66 hits on average.
- with DC8, it will outnumber assault elites like space marines.
- being 'skimmer', a Manta is immune to a lot assalut specialist CC weapons like the deadly Terminator powerfist.
- 4+ reinforced is not nothing, and makes inflicting hits difficult.
I agree that a Manta is rather weak offensively in an assault -for a titan-. I won't try to convince you if it is fluffically acceptable or not for this is a matter of taste. Still I see an objective reason to keep it that way: IMO, the risky nature of an assault for support crafts goes a long way in balancing the planetfall ability, which seem to be costed 'free' when analysing the point cost of support crafts. This way you'd better choose a safe landing zone.
Still, I think Morays are a bit too weak in an assault. Let me explain:
- Manta rolls 8 x 5+ dices and costs 850 points
- Moray rolls 3 x 6+ dices and costs 300 points
Add to that 5+ reinforced versus 4+ reinforced. -> Morays take twice more hits.
The math is easy here: the Moray is twice worse than the Manta in an assault for the points. That's unnecessary IMO, and I think that upping the FF value of the Moray to 5+ seems reasonable, in order to make the Moray as good offensively for the points (but still lack defence  ).
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Tactica
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Post subject: Manta - what's your thoughts? Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:47 pm |
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For the record, I think Asura's caution is valid on the Manta. I would really question whether a Manta should be down to a 4+ in FF. I realize its big, I realize it could do some damage, I acknowledge the amount of guns... however, there is a caution for game play that we want to avoid. We don't want Manta Assaults to be the new 'latest thing'. It is a support craft and should be used as such, but I think there is a level of caution when getting down to 50% effectiveness in FF from a planetfalling beast that can also transport.
I would say we have bigger fish to fry regarding the Manta's issues. Its FF at 5+, although arguably not quite realistic, may be necessary for balance. I would say focus on the weaponry as its main roll is to support from afar and bus in contingents of troops. FF should remain a last resort IMHO.
On the other hand, I think Baron P has a very valid point about the Moray. It probably should be 5+ in FF. I think he's done a find job in describing a problem/weakness of the unit which seems quite out of flavor as well as balance - and in such a way I think we can fix.
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