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Spacecraft missile bombardments?

Nerroth

Post subject: Spacecraft missile bombardments?

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:54 pm

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Hi!

In Battlefleet Gothic, instead of using the same giant torpedoes seen in the Imperial Navy and other space fleets, the Tau fleets use drone-guided missiles (each point of torpedo strangth actually represents about 10 of these missiles), which are not too dissimilar to the larger land-based missiles used by the heavier Tau vehicles.

My thought was this: For Tau spacecraft - such as the Lar'shi (Hero) class cruiser currently in the list, as well as the Or'es El'leath (Custodian) class I propose in another thread - maybe on the turn the ship deploys a number of these heavy missiles may be targeted against any marked targets on the board relevant to the starship's missile strength value? (Maybe eier equal to 1 or 1 and a half the BFG value)

For example, the Lar'shi has a strength 6 missile salvo, which could correspond to 6 (or 9) Tracer Missiles, and correspondingly the Strength 8 of the Custodian would become 8 (or 12) Tracers.

How does that sound?

Gary

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baronpiero

Post subject: Spacecraft missile bombardments?

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:36 pm

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The idea in itself is very good. The only problem I see: this will require a new army special rule.

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Nerroth

Post subject: Spacecraft missile bombardments?

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:37 pm

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Well, it doesn't need to be anything major, just state this:

Tau Orbital Missile Barrage

In keeping with the Shas'ar'tol's and Kor'vattra's shared concept of surgical warfare, Tau eschew the traditional orbital bombardment used by some other fleets. Instead, the Tau ship fires a salvo of guided missiles from its prow-mounted gravitic launcher. These missiles are guided to their targets by markerlight-armed ground units, in order to maximize their ability to lay waste to suitable enemy formations.

On a turn when a Tau spacecraft armed with gravitic launchers is in play, choose an enemy formation anywhere on the table. This formation may be targeted by the starship's Tracer Missiles, recieving the standard +1 markerlight bonus should the target formation be marked.

Alternatively, I could change it so that you can only target marked formations from space.

Simple enough?

Gary

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Honda

Post subject: Spacecraft missile bombardments?

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:54 pm

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Honestly?

I'm struggling with this one a little bit. Primarily because of the scale. I realize that we use precision where others might use brute force, but at the same time, the missiles that get fired from ships have to have some size to them.

Reason: Their targets are sometimes miles long. In Epic scale, I recall Jervis stating that one of the destroyers/frigates would be the equivalent of 5 feet long in game scale. The tracers we're playing around with have to be nearly microscopic in comparison.

So, that's the fluff part of me acting up, the real question should be are our spacecraft needing this boost? Is this idea trying to add value to spacecraft so that someone might be more likely to take one?

However, the idea itself is very thought provoking.

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Nerroth

Post subject: Spacecraft missile bombardments?

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:31 am

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Well the fluff part is handled, in my view, by the fact that unlike the big scary missiles used by the Imperial Navy and other races, the Tau fire loads of smaller missiles to have the same effect. In fact, the difference in size causes the Tau player to roll every turn to see if your points of missile strength don't run out of fuel on the way to their target...

The way I see it, if a Manta can do D6 points of damage to an enemy starship in its bombing run, ten Tracer missiles should be fine for doing just 1 point of damage!

In game purposes, the Tau ships lose the orbital bombardment option that other races' ships have (and rightly so, fluff-wise) but it still doesn't mean that 150 points' worth of Lar'shi or 300 points worth of Custodian shouldn't have to lose out so much in terms of their direct impact on the game - the missiles would be a more in-character way of providing additional heavy support, without going too crazy - I hope!

Gary

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Nerroth

Post subject: Spacecraft missile bombardments?

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:31 am

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How about this:

When the target is un-marked, only war engines may be targeted (the same restrictions that pinpoints have - can't see the target from space), yet any marked formation may be targeted - and gets the plus 1 markerlight bonus.

How does that sound?

Gary

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clausewitz

Post subject: Spacecraft missile bombardments?

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:12 am

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I have to admit I like the concept (if you've read Larry Niven's Footfall there is a similar concept in there).

As to the question of balance: the big advantage is that with this method you do not have to guess where your targets will be in order to use it. Perhaps this could be off-set by having the Tau player select a ML formation that must be used to call in the orbital strike (thus the risk that the formation gets KO'd before calling in the strike). I also think that 6 or 8 MW attacks is probably too many; I would suggest 4 and 6 respectively.

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Steele

Post subject: Spacecraft missile bombardments?

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:17 am

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Quote (Honda @ 24 Oct. 2005 (00:54))

Reason: Their targets are sometimes miles long. In Epic scale, I recall Jervis stating that one of the destroyers/frigates would be the equivalent of 5 feet long in game scale. The tracers we're playing around with have to be nearly microscopic in comparison.

So, that's the fluff part of me acting up, the real question should be are our spacecraft needing this boost? Is this idea trying to add value to spacecraft so that someone might be more likely to take one?

However, the idea itself is very thought provoking.

While I agree with you on the Size , you should remember that today also exist similar Missiles. Multi-Warhead Nuclear Missiles that when fired are one big and then when arriving near it?s destinatination the primary prow shielding is jettisoned and half a dozen or more sub-missiles are fired to their targets. So, from my point of view that wouldn?t hamper the playability. The only thing we should develop ( if we do) is how many of them impact the table. Also remember that Orbital Barrages use a larger Template, maybe there is room for us to improve an old one or develop a new missile type. But this is my opinion.

Cheers!
Steele

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Honda

Post subject: Spacecraft missile bombardments?

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:16 pm

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Ok, if we feel we can justify this based on the fluff, I do think it is a "better" solution than the bombardment template.

I also agree on:

1. Special ML formation, we need the risk to balance the capability

2. Use 4 or 6 MW weapons as higher numbers would be great

but unbalancing

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Nerroth

Post subject: Spacecraft missile bombardments?

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:05 am

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Just to clear up a few things:

Even a Custodian with 8 Tracer missiles is only rolling 6s if firing blind at a WE (assuming it can target them as well with the missiles as it can with PP attacks), even a marked formation would be recieving 8 MW5+ shots - quite useful, but not too much worse than 6...

That said, the fact that you're guiding them to a suitable target is quite an advantage...hmm.

So much for that train of thought!

I wouldn't be so sure about having to designate a specific ML formation, though.

Gary

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Dobbsy

Post subject: Spacecraft missile bombardments?

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:04 am

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My preference would be to keep the ship we have already(hero) as it is. I don't believe it needs changing at all. It seems fine and in balance to me.
Here's my reasoning -

Similar ship class Comparison:

Eldar Wraithship = 1x4BP orbital OR 1xpin-point 150pts

Imperial Lunar Class Cruiser = 1xorbital AND 1xpin-point

?pts(not sure on the cost of this ship can't find it in the rules)

SM Strike Cruiser = 1x5BP orbital 200pts

Ork Kill Kroozer = 2-7BP orbital 200pts

so IMHO keep the Hero Cruiser as is because it lends flavour to the Tau list. If it positively HAS to be changed knock up the cost to 200 pts for the extra Pin-point attack.

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Nerroth

Post subject: Spacecraft missile bombardments?

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:30 pm

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The Lunar's 150 points, with a 3BP orbital and 1 PP.

If the inclusion of the Tracer bombardment makes the ships too cheap at 150 and 300 respectively, would 200 and 350 - or some other costs - be more reasonable?

Gary

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Xisor

Post subject: Spacecraft missile bombardments?

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:39 pm

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In response to the actual 'idea' of using the Gravitic Launcher as a tracer missile battery, I think there is a glaring problem. Tau Missiles (like every other torpedo) are not fired in Low Orbit, instead they simply impact of the planet.

Whilst I'm open to the idea of a Orbital Missile Drop, I don't think it would(or really should) be from the Prow Mount Guns, Why not just drop the missiles out the sides of the ship and let the drones guide themselves?

Otherwise, I'd say the idea has merit, but other than that...it does look like the idea itself would need a bit of tweaking to properly 'model' with the rules.

Xisor

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Nerroth

Post subject: Spacecraft missile bombardments?

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:04 pm

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Well, the reply I'd give there is that unlike the inflexible torp launchers used by the IN and others, the Kor on board a Lar'shi or Or'es El'leath can adjust the force with which they fire the ship's missiles (the ship's gravitic field is pulsed to provide the extra acceleration when in space), all they need do is not activate that pulse - or reduce the strength of it - and the missiles will be able to be guided down onto their target.

The ships are assumed to be prow-on to the planet when firing (as the Eldar and SM ships are, to maximize the firepower brought to bear on the surface), the prow launcher would be as good a place for the missiles to leave as any.

Gary

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Tactica

Post subject: Spacecraft missile bombardments?

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:26 pm

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Nerroth,

I wonder if we are exchanging simplicity for fluff here. I also wonder if we are messing with something that works unnecessarily.

1) Tau as a whole have a weakness in quality long range MW/TK today. Losing this is only going to further cause a problem in this area. 2x pinpoint therefore is
a. feared by the enemy, and
b. works for 150 points in the Tau list

2) 2x pinpoint doesn't require special rules outside of the base book and is simple to resolve. Its also simple for the opponent to comprehend - even though he's not familiar with the tau codex.

Personally, I don't see any reason to change something that's working in this case.

Furthermore, I like the help the spaceship affords my Tau list in the long range MW/TK area. I find my list hurting for this kind of support and would hate to loose one ship I've come to rely upon for this help. I only get it once - and sometimes I have fools luck with the dice, but when it always arrives sooner or later, and it always strikes fear in the enemy. I like that and would hope we can avoid losing it.

Now, I don't see any reason in chaning the fluff to meet your description of lots of cluster smart missles focusing in on a point of impact, but I would recommend keeping the pin-point rules in this case.

Also, I think your idea has merrit. Perhaps like Dobbsy said, in a larger or more expensive ship - like the one you presented - perhaps here you could employ a tau specific special rule and have an alternate 'cluster' effect weapon which could be further modified by markers on this larger ship.

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