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Space Marines vs Titan Legions

 Post subject: Space Marines vs Titan Legions
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:47 pm 
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What sized games are you playing?

The reason I ask is that it sounds like you are playing with pretty high point densities.  In tournament-style games (2700-3000 on a 6' board) I usually don't have a hard time outmaneuvering any army that is close to the 33% limit on titans.

Well... except Eldar :D  They're just too slippery.

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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Titan Legions
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:24 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 12 2005 Aug.,21:47)
What sized games are you playing?

The reason I ask is that it sounds like you are playing with pretty high point densities. ?In tournament-style games (2700-3000 on a 6' board) I usually don't have a hard time outmaneuvering any army that is close to the 33% limit on titans.

Well... except Eldar :D ?They're just too slippery.

2700-3000, usually.

Er, I'm talking about an AMTL army with rather more than 33% on titans.


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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Titan Legions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:45 pm 
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I understood that you were using AMTL.  I was just saying that even in a conventional army, an 850 point titan makes enough of a difference that the enemy has a maneuver advantage.

At 2700-3000, I've found that AMTL always has maneuver problems.  The lack of ground coverage and slow speed is, imho, far worse a problem than the supposed activation disadvantage.

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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Titan Legions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:14 am 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 15 2005 Aug.,16:45)
I understood that you were using AMTL. ?I was just saying that even in a conventional army, an 850 point titan makes enough of a difference that the enemy has a maneuver advantage.

At 2700-3000, I've found that AMTL always has maneuver problems. ?The lack of ground coverage and slow speed is, imho, far worse a problem than the supposed activation disadvantage.

Unless you play against a Player who fields mainly infantry. Happened in a game a few weeks ago. We agreed a 3k game. My opponent thought that i would field Tau or Eldar, so he picked Orks. Which I didn?t know, he could have fielded Chaos or SM as well. So I took a Warlord, a Reaver , 2 Warhounds, an Ordinatus Mars ,a Capitolis Imperialis and a detachment of Hydras. needless to say that they were shot to pieces by the AMTL. He conceded by the End of turn 2, cause of lack of Forces. The titans didn?t have to move that much, although they went constantly forward.

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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Titan Legions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:10 pm 
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So do we think that shooting at Titans should be more effective than at present? Or is it a case that vulnerability to infantry in assaults is entirely appropriate. In other words, Titans are designed to be resilient to fire directed at them, but have issues when infantry are sitting on their toes and hacking away at their servoes? (Any rhyme there was purely unintentional!)

That sounds appropraite and allows SM a way to take down Titans and other assorted WEs, whilst the higher proportion of TK and MW weapons in other armies should actually allow them to have a chance to deal with WEs, though they still have the Assault option open to them (it would seem appropriate for Orks in particular).

Having said that, if SMs are being left at home because Titans are so difficult for them to face, then presumably something is wrong. The problem here is that either a weakness would need to be built into the AMTL list or an addition would need to be made to the SM list (which is counter the design intent outlined by GW). Assuming the former is the only viable option, what should the weakness be? Further weakening of Titans in assaults (thereby necessitating supporting units to act as 'speed bumps')?


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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Titan Legions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:35 pm 
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Steele:  I thought we were talking about Marines v Titans.

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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Titan Legions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:40 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 18 2005 Aug.,14:35)
Steele: ?I thought we were talking about Marines v Titans.

Neal
Yes, but I wanted to show that not only SM have problems. But also any other Army that fields lot of Infantry with few AV Support has to cross the table to even have a chance to come to an assault. And while doing that the long range fire power , combined with the right Barrage Weapons cuts the enemy to shreds. In my case there were Orks with a lower Armor than SM. But in the end I suppose that the Marines would also have conceded, given their small detachment sizes. You may try it out, my List is posted, it?s about 3k Points. You?ll see.

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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Titan Legions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:17 pm 
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Based on that Titan force you took, I can't imagine any other army without Titans and WEs having much of a chance ?  My contention is a TL force should only be 50% Titans and the rest Infantry, tanks, etc. !  Anybody could field a huge Titan Force and smash the other guy's ... battleships vs. PT Boats ... not much of a match there ?  :D

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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Titan Legions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:02 pm 
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The matchup is inherently imbalanced.  Being able to play a reasonable game becomes entirely too influenced by army composition.  I still don't think there will ever be a suitably balanced WE-based GT tournament list.

That said, I think there can be plenty of fun games with them as long as both sides don't mind if there is a big disparity one way or the other.

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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Titan Legions
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:53 am 
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Well we'll keep the 50% Titan rule of fielding TLs... just to keep things "reasonable" ...  However, we don't always use Titans and when we do we use 33% TBL for Titans, CAS and Off Board Support (SM1) for units other than TLs ... :D

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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Titan Legions
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:51 pm 
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Warmachine army is difficult to balance because it is most vunerable to a specialistic TK weapons. So if the opponent knows he will face Titans, he will take more TK weapons. If the list is balanced against a balanced army, it will always loose to a anti-Titan army.

Another problem is that SM have few TK weapons. I have been thinking about a general solution which could help with both problems. In short, I propose making all warmachines more vulnerable to jump-pack infantry in close combat.

It has been often said that every army should have a weakness. I don't think it is entirely correct. I think however it is undisputable that every formation should have a clear weakness, which can be avoided only by cooperation with other formations - eg Ork foot formations are slow, SM formations are small etc.

Titans and Warmachines in general, and specially fearless Warmachines seem to lack such a weakness. Should we for a moment leave the game and try to envision the imagined battlefield, one potential weakness appears - the warmachines are powerful, but not very manouverable. Shoud they be boarded by even one infantryman, they could be easily destroyed.

Titans, and most other warmachines are gigantic, and it wouldn't be easy for an infantryman starting at the groundlevel to reach the hatches. But there is one exception - Jump Packs allow easily to reach hatches, command head of a Titan etc and board it.

Because of that, I would suggest adding the following rule to Jump Pack rules:

"All close combat attacks of an infantry unit with Jump pack special rules, if directed against a warmachine, count as Macro Weapon attacks."

This introduces a clear weakness to warmachines, doesn't requires a new formation or unit and gives a purpose to Assault Marines.

It also provides a dual-use units, which can be used effectively both against Titans and other targets.


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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Titan Legions
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:44 pm 
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Aha! Back on topic, are we?

I have followed your idea on the old SG forum, and it is interesting and original. However, the whole point of this thread was to say that - in my opinion - SMs are just fine against AMTL.

I've had titans broken and indeed destroyed by carefully timed combined assaults using Assault detachments as it is. Making them MW against titans would simply crush titan legions.

Space Marines do have a certain amount of trouble destroying titans. However, you do not need to kill stuff in Epic tournament play to win, and Space Marines - if used correctly - can easily outmaneuver and, by destroying select weaker units like warhounds, win significantly on objectives.

That change would make titans very much more vulnerable, and would probably require recosting of all titans.

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