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Marines vrs. Chaos
Legion 4
 Post subject: Marines vrs. Chaos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:51 pm 
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Always do what works for you ... :;):

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dafrca
 Post subject: Marines vrs. Chaos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:00 pm 
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Quote (CyberShadow @ 09 2004 Sep.,06:51)
However, the only place that I would make transports seperate is in the case of Stormtroopers. Just the thought of the aircraft having to hover to stay within range of the troops seems surreal!

Have to agree with the thought here. I play a game called Stargrunt and in that game your chopper/grav transport is a seperate "formation" that has been given the ability to transport other "formations".

It does seem odd that the flyers would be stuck like ballons on strings.  :laugh:

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dafrca
 Post subject: Marines vrs. Chaos
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:40 pm 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 09 2004 Sep.,07:51)
Always do what works for you ... :;):

I agree with you L4. I think we should each do as we think works best for each of us.

On point I would make is: Make sure you understand all of the effects of your change/house rule. Often when you make one change it will require more changes because often rules are interlinked.

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Xavi
 Post subject: Marines vrs. Chaos
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:58 pm 
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Ok, let's return to the topic after this wild ranting series on slightly related issues :D

For what I have seen people say, it doesn't matter if the transports die or are an attachment that are almost worthless when they are not ferrying your units from point A to point B. This is because the movement phase that you are almost bond to have with them (first or second turn, before enemy fire starts to rain on you) and that allows you to get hold of one or more target objectives is more than worth it.

I feel inclined to agree with the above statement, but this rises a related topic: is then an infantry company worthless? In general they are cheaper (250 vs 400 points without upgrades) and the upgrades are also cheaper overall, since you don't need to buy transport capacity for them.

I was thinking to bulk an army with pure infantry depending on how people reacts to it. Obviously it is not an immediate issue, since I still have top get the starting force (less than a month for that now, wohoo!!) but I am looking forward to a larget force, so that might be important in a not so far away time.

Do infantry formations with, say a fire support platoon upgrade worth it or the chimera dudes are still prefered over them? We take into consideration that there is already one mechanized unit, so thise dudes would be a second wave to relieve the first one when they come under heavy pressure from the enemy.

Regards,

Xavi

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dafrca
 Post subject: Marines vrs. Chaos
PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:07 am 
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Quote (Xavi @ 10 2004 Sep.,14:58)
Ok, let's return to the topic after this wild ranting series on slightly related issues :D

[snip]

...but this rises a related topic: is then an infantry company worthless?

No, the infantry company is worth the points in some games. In a true tournament where I do not know who I will face and we are using the basic tournament set up, I will take the mech over the troops.

However, if I know the game we are playing is a defender vs. attacker then a defender the infantry could be worth more to me.

For me, the value of a unit or formation is relative to the game I am playing. I remember one game where I was playing bugs. I would have given anything to trade in my Shadowswords for my Baneblades. But against the Eldar player I killed his titan and his cobras quickly with the Shadowswords.

That is why I collected more points then I will ever play (unless Primarch does his 100,000 per side and I get to go) because I can switch in and out what I believe will work for each game I play. Sometimes tank heavy, sometimes Titan heavy, etc.

That's my penny's worth.

dafrca

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Xavi
 Post subject: Marines vrs. Chaos
PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:56 am 
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YUp, I agree with you. For the first formation in any army I would take a mechanized formation as well. Adds flexibility. The doubt was if once you already have a mechanized company it would be worth it to take an infantry formation without transport capacity, investing the extra points in some other stuff like upgrades (like a fire support formation), or if it would be better to take an other mechanizxed company instead. This is assuming a "tournament style" army, without knowing which specific escenario you are gonna play before the battle. In general this is my situation in most fantasdy and battlefleet games I play. I don't know the escenario or if I will be attacker defender or what until I go to the club and talk with the other player.

Xavi

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iblisdrax
 Post subject: Marines vrs. Chaos
PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:32 am 
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Remember , the infantry co can be garrisoned at the beginning of the game, which, in the case of the IG with no armor, is very usefull.  Also, you can use an infantry co to screen artillery and protect your near edge objective, where speed is not necessary.

my 2cents,

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-AL
 Post subject: Marines vrs. Chaos
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:03 pm 
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Is it just me, or are Chaos forces particularly well suited to take on loyalist marines?  I just seem to have a harder time against them than I do when facing all other armies...

While we're at, does anyone have any good tips?

Thanks,
Al

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Tas
 Post subject: Marines vrs. Chaos
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:05 am 
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Keep them at range and out of CC range where they can use sacrifices to call in nasty demons and overrun you.  

Helltalons are nasty in pairs, take one out with your aircraft then ignore the other one and go strafing!

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Marines vrs. Chaos
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:08 pm 
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In addition to what Tas said, pick your assaults carefully.

A daemon-heavy formation is a prime "clipping" target.  Typically, CSM players put the daemons out front to soak hits.  Daemons suck at FF (except Flamers), so you can engage at extreme range and count on very few casualties to your troops.  You should win.  Daemons desert broken formations, so even though you inflicted few direct casualties, the daemons all vanish.

You still need to prep with BMs and try to outnumber as much as possible, but it works.

Also, make sure you are using the newest daemon summoning rules.  Daemons are now ~3x as expensive to summon as they used to be and it makes a big difference on balance.

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-AL
 Post subject: Marines vrs. Chaos
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:33 am 
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But if my opponent doesn't use many deamons?  the ones he does use go strait into assult.  I find that he gets sooo many more marines than I do, plus more tanks and some Super Heavies.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Marines vrs. Chaos
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:09 pm 
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Use the latest version of the list that was posted also.  It has a significant increase in daemon cost, restrictions on WEs and a drop in power/rise in cost for Helltalons.

Needless to say, that makes a big difference.
====

CSMs will simply have you outnumbered.  You will find it nearly impossible to break them with ranged fire, but with TSKNF, he won't be able to break you either.  CSMs can, however, wear you down faster.

You will have to assault, so pick your assaults and hit him on your terms.  You will almost always want to firefight.

You should have more activations, so use your activation advantage to stay back out of range of his assaults.  Most daemons only have an effective assault range of 20cm or less (5cm summoning distance + 15cm move to base).  That should be easy to stay out of for the most part.  Flamers (35cm), Beasts (45cm), and GDs with wings (35cm) are more problematic but do your best.

If that doesn't work, try to move a formation into range to support the threatened formation.

If you can't move a formation after he positions at the end of the turn, you will still have a good chance to win the strategy roll and go first at the beginning of the turn before he can come after you.

Basically, this boils down to protecting your forces.  Chaos will expend themselves.  Deamon pools become exhausted.  Broken formations can be more easily destroyed.

It's not going to be easy.

You have some advantages:

Thawks give you maneuverability he can't aspire to.  Don't do suicide missions.  Use them on the flanks even if the target is less "juicy," take the win, and live to  fight next turn.  There's nothing worse than a Thawk which makes it off the ground to strafe for the rest of the game.

Whirlwinds give you relatively inexpensive artillery (at least compared to buying a retinue just to get Defilers).  Use them to prep for assaults or simply to hammer a broken formation and eliminate it entirely rather than allow it to rally.

Chaplains have Inspiring, making clipping assaults more effective, while the CSM list now has no Inspiring characters (outside Greater Daemons).

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-AL
 Post subject: Marines vrs. Chaos
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:18 pm 
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Thanks Neal.
By 'clipping' I assume you mean assulting the end of a formation as opposed to its front, so as to avoid fighting the whole formation?

The new version of the list will, I'm sure, will make it that little bit easier.  (Quintaan was using the new list the one time I beat him)

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Marines vrs. Chaos
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:15 pm 
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Yep.  Clipping frequently hits the end of a formation, but any "minimalist" assault qualifies.

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