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Allocating the unit for leader, commander, supreme commander

 Post subject: Allocating the unit for leader, commander, supreme commander
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:11 pm 
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OK people I know some of you might be getting sick of my Questions, however I have only played 9 games of Epic. I was until 2 weeks ago using a printed out version of the rules from the Net Epic Tournament pack.

I can see a lot of things that might happen in Epic Gaming because I am used to playing 40K, I know there are power gamers out there. I would like to know if I am being told whoppers by an opponent, and what things I can do to my own lists to make things like my commander survive longer.

In the Dark Eldar list I can allocate a Leader (sybarite, and a Commander or Supreme Commander (Dracon/Archon) to a unit in any of my Kalabit Formation. I am limited to only one supreme commander.

Question 1: If my leader who has a close combat MW weapon is added to a formation of vehicles that have CC and FF values, does he still get the +1 MW attack if I elect to use the Ravager in CC? I think the answer is yes as LV rules allow transported units to shoot from them, and in 40K they are open topped. However some may argue that it is a vehicle.

Question 2: I have an all vehicle formation the Kalabite Flotilla made up of 4 or 6 Ravagers. I have to allocate the leaders to the vehicles. If I add a new unit to the Formation, say a Pain Engine which is a War Engine, can I allocate this as the Leader/commanders unit?

Question 3: Similar to question 2, however I can upgrade the transports for my Kalabite Syndicate or Kalabite Coterie to Barges of Pleasure - War Engines, and I can add a single Ravager to the Formation. Can I state that the Supreme Commander/Leader is in allocated to either the ravager, or one of the Barges of Pleasure? I am thinking of his survivability here.

Question 4: If the Leader/Commander is in the War Engine unit, does he lose his invulnerable save? I know that they can not carry out any actions including shooting (3.1.3), Does this mean they can not use their abilities? remove a blast marker, order up to 3 formations of troops to follow then in to an assault/Fire fight, and to re-roll a failed initiative test?

The reasons for my wanting to know all this in particular leader unit allocation is leader Survivability. You see my Ravagers and Raiders are only light vehicles, and my Kalabite Warriors have no basic save. If my commander is in either a warrior or Incubi unit in close combat and they get killed, goodbye commander, If I add him to the Barge of Pleasure or the Ravager which is using Fire Fight value, and probably sitting further back, then he may not be one of the first units killed off, and may even be able to get out of there quickly if the formation is broken.

Since I have now been told that The Barges of Pleasure are an upgrade to a Formation, so their points are part of the Formatons BTS value, which is different to Slavebringer Assault Boats and Executioner Landing Barges, then it should be a viable unit to have the Commander in. The same can be said for a vessel of pain added to a Ravagers Formation.

I could see a Space Marine player who upgraded a unit with Dreadnoughts adding his Librarian to the Dreadnought unit making it a Librarian Dreadnought. Similar things in other lists could happen. I want to know where I stand before it comes up, and especially to guide me along when designing my lists so I not called out as WAAC or a cheat. A Dark Eldar Archon in a Incubi or Warrior unit is an easy target, and at 100 points a great unit to waste.

It might also be a cheaper option in games where I want to not include the Tormentor Titan and add more aircraft in the 1/3 points allocation.

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 Post subject: Re: Allocating the unit for leader, commander, supreme comma
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:43 pm 
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Sweet questions dude. Somewhere someone will have the same or similar so good to ask for posterity.

note: I'm not overly familiar with the individual DE units and can't be arsed to open the TP (and it doesn't really matter as the rules are the rules irrespective of the name, generally)
Deb wrote:
Question 1: If my leader who has a close combat MW weapon is added to a formation of vehicles that have CC and FF values, does he still get the +1 MW attack if I elect to use the Ravager in CC? I think the answer is yes as LV rules allow transported units to shoot from them, and in 40K they are open topped. However some may argue that it is a vehicle.

If you place a CH with a CC weapon into a vehicle of any type, the weapon still counts. The LV rules don't have any effect here. For instance, I can (an do) put Commissars into my SHTs. If someone CC's him, he gets that sweet MW attack still. Best to think of CH as functionally being waregear. You can use any applied amount of hand-wavium to justify why it works on your particular vehicle. :)
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Deb wrote:
Question 2: I have an all vehicle formation the Kalabite Flotilla made up of 4 or 6 Ravagers. I have to allocate the leaders to the vehicles. If I add a new unit to the Formation, say a Pain Engine which is a War Engine, can I allocate this as the Leader/commanders unit?

Question 3: Similar to question 2, however I can upgrade the transports for my Kalabite Syndicate or Kalabite Coterie to Barges of Pleasure - War Engines, and I can add a single Ravager to the Formation. Can I state that the Supreme Commander/Leader is in allocated to either the ravager, or one of the Barges of Pleasure? I am thinking of his survivability here.

Should be able to (see my SHT example above) unless there's a specific restriction on the unit entry/list design such as "SC MUST be put on / in XYZ" you should be good (check the list to confirm).

Deb wrote:
Question 4: If the Leader/Commander is in the War Engine unit, does he lose his invulnerable save? I know that they can not carry out any actions including shooting (3.1.3), Does this mean they can not use their abilities? remove a blast marker, order up to 3 formations of troops to follow then in to an assault/Fire fight, and to re-roll a failed initiative test?

No. The CH abilities and weapons are added to the unit it is placed on (hence the wargear comment above). In the SHT example, the Commisar character grants the tank they're in Fearless (and everything else as well).

edit: Be aware that the CH could be in a unit that is transported by another unit. The abilities do not magically transfer to the containing vehicle. So for instance say I have a Marine SC in a Predator (don't ask why) and that's in a Lander. The SC invulnerable save doesn't transfer to the marine lander. Capiche?

Deb wrote:
I could see a Space Marine player who upgraded a unit with Dreadnoughts adding his Librarian to the Dreadnought unit making it a Librarian Dreadnought.

Yup that's totally possible (though Dreds are in practice rare as hens teeth for most marine lists except for those with special themes that make them useful such as IW and IH). But you got it!

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 Post subject: Re: Allocating the unit for leader, commander, supreme comma
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:02 pm 
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Thanks a lot. It might be a way for me to run a decent 3000 point list without risking my Supreme Commander to a lot of the enemy fire. It could also mean that I could take Pain Engines as add-ons to Ravager formations or in Heavy Barge support Formations, and remove the need for a Titan.

This would mean I have more points to spend on aircraft, etc.

It also means the commanders unit would become the BTS, but hey, at least the enemy will have to decide who to shoot at - my nasty fast Ravager formations with lots of AP and AT weapons, or my Commanders formation, which I will probably slightly behind most of the Formations to give him cover.

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 Post subject: Re: Allocating the unit for leader, commander, supreme comma
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:56 pm 
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Well I spent a little time making up a list, and This one looks like it could work. The Archon's Formation is only 1 vehicle and 4 stands of Infantry for 425 Points, but I am planning to cover it with other formations.


Kabals – 1550 Points
425 Points – Kabal Coterie – 4 x Incubi, Archon (mounted in Barge of Pleasure), 1 x Barge of Pleasure
375 Points – Kabal Syndicate – 6 x Kalabite Warriors, Sybarite (mounted in Barge of Pleasure), 2 x Barge of Pleasure
375 points – Kabal Flotilla – 6 x Ravagers, Sybarite
375 points – Kabal Flotilla – 6 x Ravagers, Sybarite
Partisans – 700 Points
225 Points – Reaver Gang – 6 x Reaver Jetbikes, Sybarite
225 Points – Reaver Gang – 6 x Reaver Jetbikes, Sybarite
250 Points – Heavy Barge – 1 Pain Engine
Titans, SS and Aircraft – 550 Points
300 points – Ravens – 3 x Raven fighters
250 Points – Razorwings – 2 x Razorwing Fighter Bombers

It drops my formations from the usual 10 or 11 to only 9, but I actually have 3 more 45cm range weapons, 5 more shadow fields, and an extra aircraft. I did lose a 6 Ravagers and the Tormentor Titan to filed the 3 Barges and a Pain Engine and aircraft, but I think it will work out better. The Shadow fields are really good at reducing enemy to hit rolls and absorb a hit.

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 Post subject: Re: Allocating the unit for leader, commander, supreme comma
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:20 pm 
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Just be careful about commanders etc as in some lists they are not characters but units. Assuming the dark eldar upgrades are characters, then yes you simply add the statlines together. Note that if you were to add multiple characters with the same specialist ability such as Leader then you don't get the ability twice.

Some other tips: adding a character with a CC extra attack will always confer it on the unit, but obviously only if the unit is in base contact and attacking with its CC value. For skimmers (which are almost always better in firefight) that means you either force firefight OR use the CC extra attack. However war engines are an exception, if you read the rules you will notice that war engines can still choose to firefight with some of their attacks whilst using CC for others - provided they have targets for both. This is not the case for regular units.

Also relevant if you are considering mixing war engines into a formation of vehicles or light vehicles is that war engines can be "picked out" by your opponent during shooting. So bear this in mind if you wanting to put a SC in there. On the other hand, war engines also block line of sight and can therefore also confer a "hull down" cover modifier to shooting attacks against the vehicles.

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 Post subject: Re: Allocating the unit for leader, commander, supreme comma
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:49 pm 
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Quote:
Note that if you were to add multiple characters with the same specialist ability such as Leader then you don't get the ability twice, on the same unit.
(emphasis mine)
important clarification. (also why almost all lists with CH upgrades granting Leader generally can take that only once in a formation). So for instance, say you can have two Invulnerable Save CHs (hypothetically) upgrading a formation. You can put them on two units and they both has IS now. However, if applied to the same unit, you don't get another IS roll, only the one.

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 Post subject: Re: Allocating the unit for leader, commander, supreme comma
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:37 pm 
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You also forgot that the War engine can be shot at with pin point attacks from spaceships, and that if it does lose a DC, then on a 6 it is a critical hit. It still might last longer. It is just an experiment I want to try out to see if SC and leaders can survive longer this way.

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