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WE/Transport BTS question.

 Post subject: WE/Transport BTS question.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:28 am 
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Hey guys and gals,

We had a situation come up yesterday (that I'm sure has happened 100 times before but I've never really thought about it) that I'd like peoples thoughts on.

Vior'La Tau had a Riptide BTS (4 suits).
During the game, an Orca loaded with Crisis Suits was shot down on a critical.
The combined Orca/Crisis Suits points cost was higher than the Riptide BTS.

Did the Orca/Crisis Suits destruction secure the BTS victory goal?

When I thought about it my answer was yes but I couldn't really find anything to back that up.

Cheers,
Steve.

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 Post subject: Re: WE/Transport BTS question.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:51 am 
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I think not. You buy the Orca separate right? Then it's two formation with individual points that got destroyed, it just happened at once.

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 Post subject: Re: WE/Transport BTS question.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:56 am 
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Agreed, your Riptides were still the BTS.

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 Post subject: Re: WE/Transport BTS question.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:44 am 
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The confusion arises as there are several references to the formation counting as 1 formation (aerial Assaulting and ground attack for example).
This leads to several instances of the benefit of being the largest/most expensive formation for an army with no draw backs.

Just thought it was interesting...

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 Post subject: Re: WE/Transport BTS question.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:53 am 
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It never says they count ss one formation for the purposes of BTS/victory conditions though.

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 Post subject: Re: WE/Transport BTS question.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:01 pm 
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Agreed.
I thought I'd seen something like this over the years but I guess it was my imagination...

All good.

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 Post subject: Re: WE/Transport BTS question.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:57 pm 
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Agreed. All references to a single 'combined' formation specifically state that this is for the purposes / duration of the assault. That excludes consideration for the victory conditions.


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 Post subject: Re: WE/Transport BTS question.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:18 pm 
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Man, loosing BTS as well would really be rubbing salt into the wound! :-)


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 Post subject: Re: WE/Transport BTS question.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:13 am 
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I would say no.

The Orca was not purchased as a dedicated transport for the Crisis battle suits when the army list was made up. Thus it is considered a separate formation.

A good example is in the Dark Eldar list. I can purchase a formation of 6 wyches and 2 Warp Beast and have dedicated transports that are 2 Barges of Pleasure (War Engines) The wyches formation may lose all their infantry, and the barges of pleasure rout and get away. Later they are rallied and are still part of the original formation so no BTS to the enemy.

A lot harder to explain example is that I can purchase a formation of 4 Talos and a dedicated transport of a Slavebringer Assault Boat (Bomber and War Engine) This is harder to define as a bomber can make a disengagement move in the end phase. The rules state that it is part of their formation it has dropped off until it leaves via the disengagement move. I can not explain whether the Bomber/WE is still part of the Talos Formation or not. Especially since aircraft (bombers) treat Morale and blast markers differently. What would happen if the bomber was destroyed in a subsequent turn on a bombing run and the Talos were sitting unmolested on an objective at full strength? Would its destruction make the Talos take a break test?

A third example, and easier to explain would be if I Purchase a Executioner Landing Module, then separately purchase 2 different formations, say 2 Barges of Pleasure and their dedicated Infantry 6 Wyches and 2 Warp Beasts, the second formation is a Kabal Coterie with 4 Incubi and a Archon or Dracon and 2 Raiders.

It just happens that the Executioner is the BTS simply because it cost 750 Points and Dark Eldar have no other formations that cost as much. If it were not my most expensive formation. Say the rules had allowed for my tormentor titans to pair up and the pair cost 900 points, they would still be the BTS, as the formations on the executioner are not part of its initial points cost. The loss to the army at losing the Executioner in this case would not give the enemy the BTS. Even with the Wyches and the Coterie on board. It would be a game changer as their combined cost is 1500 points, and you lose the tactical flexibility and forces to hammer the enemy to death. I would only take such a risky maneuver for much larger games around 8000 points or more (2 x 6'x4' tables). However being the BTS in any game I take, it would award the BTS if destroyed. Once it had dropped off the formations it had carried, they would be treated as separate formations in subsequent rounds.

Now I think about it, another scenario comes to mind. What if the Barges of Pleasure were the only things left from the Wyches and Warp Beast formation? They were then free to withdraw providing they make their break test and then in another turn pick up remnants from another formation that had lost its dedicated transport, say Kalabite warriors hiding in some ruins. This would only be allowed because the Barges of Pleasure are War Engines. This second formation is not part of the Barges formation, and their destruction once deployed does not give the BTS if the Kalibites were killed off and the Barges survived another Fire fight or assault.

Section 3.1.3 of the rule book contradicts itself a little when it says that it is an exception to the rule in that War Engines can transport units from other formations as long as the entire formation can fit inside the War Engine, and later on it says once the units from the War Engine have dismounted, they are considered part of the formation until they have completed the shooting or assault phase, which ever action they both took part in. It says the Formation and the War Engine are considered part of the same formation for the purposes of resolving the assault as if they were making a combined assault. This might be the loophole as it does say "for the purposes of resolving a combined assault". As was stated in a post above, it would still not change which units were part of the BTS formation.

If I were to assault with both the Wyches formation and the Incubi formation from the executioner, you could not specifically state which one the Executioner was part of. You could however state that they were a combined formation (all together) for the purposes of a combined assault. Once the assault had finished, they would be separate formations.

A very perplexing list of scenarios.

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 Post subject: Re: WE/Transport BTS question.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:05 am 
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Wow Deb, what we said in 3 sentences you wrote a novel about. :-P

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 Post subject: Re: WE/Transport BTS question.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:05 am 
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Great, thanks for asking about this Steve, and thanks for the clear answers everyone.

I hadn't thought the Orca+Crisis Suits counted as the BTS at the time they got shot down, so advised Steve to play on as if the Riptides were still the BTS and we'd adjust the score afterwards if it turned out he'd already killed the BTS.

Not that I think he had anything to complain about -- one Hunter shot killed all this :D

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 Post subject: Re: WE/Transport BTS question.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:51 pm 
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OK so I wrote a small novel with ideas.

I had a lot of questions and ideas. One still perplexes me though. In this paragraph I pose a particular question:

A lot harder to explain example is that I can purchase a formation of 4 Talos and a dedicated transport of a Slavebringer Assault Boat (Bomber and War Engine) This is harder to define as a bomber can make a disengagement move in the end phase. The rules state that it is part of their formation it has dropped off until it leaves via the disengagement move. I can not explain whether the Bomber/WE is still part of the Talos Formation or not. Especially since aircraft (bombers) treat Morale and blast markers differently. What would happen if the bomber was destroyed in a subsequent turn on a bombing run and the Talos were sitting unmolested on an objective at full strength? Would its destruction make the Talos take a break test?

So if the DEDICATED transport is both a Bomber and a War Engine and it leaves the table after deploying units on an unguarded objective. In a bombing run in a later turn it gets destroyed, do the units from the formation it was purchased from get affected by Blast markers when this happens?

If it were the BTS objective when purchased - say a Slavebringer Assault Boat and 4 Talos Pain Engines purchased as a Formation, does the enemy get the BTS for destroying only the ground component, or do they have to destroy both the Talos and the Slavebringer?

A nasty WAAC player could just keep the Slavebringer off board and stop the enemy getting the BTS, and this would be unfair to the enemy. The Slavebringer might even survive the game, even though it is used constantly for bombing runs.

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 Post subject: Re: WE/Transport BTS question.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:05 pm 
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The Slavebringer is purchased in exactly the same way as the Orca was above. Therefore is also not the BTS.

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 Post subject: Re: WE/Transport BTS question.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:19 pm 
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And so the Slavebringer does not affect the Talos Pain Engines once it has deployed them and left correct?

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 Post subject: Re: WE/Transport BTS question.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:31 pm 
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From the tournament pack army list: (emphasis mine)

"The Slavebringer is an independent war engine that must be assigned to a specific Dark Eldar formation during army creation"

Ergo it is not part of the formation, it is just assigned to it due to some quirky way the dark eldar list is put together

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