Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 81 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repost

 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:27 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 6:12 am
Posts: 1331
Location: Australia
can air warengines barge at all given that once landing, count as having a speed of 0? how does their movement work for a barge? i think a greater concern with flying barges is that their unlimited movement would theoretically allow them to barge some of a unit completely across the table. madness

(example: marine lander takes a long sweeping pass across the backfield, soaking up all the akak on its initial pass (so theres none to shoot it on its way back out) and then assaults a formation on the flank from behind, it hits 4 of the units and barges them across the table to the marine players frontline. the formation gets to countercharge (but being now some 90cm away from the target of the assault, aint nothing gonna make it there in time) at which point massive supporting fire wipes out the attackers and the formation breaks from an entire table away?)

also, do-able is completely a word. I shall use it in a sentence for you. "Karen Gillan is totally do-able"*

(*no aspersions are intended upon miss Gillans character, i'm not implying she is some sort of a loose woman that will allow anyone to give her a go, i'm just saying i'd quite like to put my bit in her bit)

_________________
~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:31 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5568
This is one of the many reasons that I find the epic ZOC rules overcomplicated.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:18 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5441
Location: London, UK
Onyx wrote:
Ginger wrote:
'inside' the Target formation
S - 6cm - TA - z

Here the scouts ZoC extends to 'z' covering the point where the Landa has dropped on top of the Target, and this mimics the position in the FAQ quoted above. I think it is this situation that you are suggesting is debatable. However, I repeat that even here, you have simultaneously entered both ZoCs which is what makes it 'illegal'.

I'm not sure I fully understand this point... :-[ ;D
Are you stating that it is not possible to land the Landa and do an assault in this situation (by the use of the word illegal)?

It is possible to enter the ZoC of 2 separate formations simultaneously (as described in the FAQ quote above) and still assault the nearest formation legally.
Dropping a Landa in the middle of the target formation (ie Hydras) is fulfilling the same requirements as the FAQ and seems to be possible to me. The Landa is entering 2 formations ZoC and moving into base contact with the nearest unit.
This all seems do-able (if that's a word :D ) to me...?

Yes, I am stating that IMHO, it is 'illegal' to drop the Landa onto a target formation which is covered by the scouts ZoC in the circumstances described.

The FAQ describes a situation where the Attacker does *not* in fact enter both ZoCs simultaneously which is the whole point. If it were indeed entering both ZoCs simultaneously, then the Scouts would be intermingled with the Target because of the depth of the target base/vehicle and consequently the entire lot could be charged anyway. The FAQ was actually written to explain the point that, once the Target's ZoC has been entered, the Scouts ZoC does not prevent the Attacker from moving into B-B as part of an assault.

Dropping an air assault onto the target is not actually fulfilling the circumstances in the FAQ in that it is not entering the Target ZoC before entering the Scouts ZoC.

(phew - I tend to agree with you Z ;) )


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:20 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:34 pm
Posts: 426
(example: marine lander takes a long sweeping pass across the backfield, soaking up all the akak on its initial pass (so theres none to shoot it on its way back out) and then assaults a formation on the flank from behind, it hits 4 of the units and barges them across the table to the marine players frontline. the formation gets to countercharge (but being now some 90cm away from the target of the assault, aint nothing gonna make it there in time) at which point massive supporting fire wipes out the attackers and the formation breaks from an entire table away?)

i dont see how you can figure this really ?
My interpretation of a war engine flyer barging is that if you have a cluster of troops you can land right on top of the formation and they are pushed to the side as once the lander contacts the ground its movement becomes zero, and you have to land to make base contact with the units you intend to barge, so its more of a situation like where you have a room full of little kids all pushed in together and then one big fat kid sits right in the middle of them and pushes them to the sides :)

thats how i percive a flying barge move anyways, the example you give just doesnt make any sense to me.

Cheers

Tim NZ


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:34 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5441
Location: London, UK
Jaggedtoothgrin wrote:
can air warengines barge at all given that once landing, count as having a speed of 0? how does their movement work for a barge? i think a greater concern with flying barges is that their unlimited movement would theoretically allow them to barge some of a unit completely across the table. madness

(example: marine lander takes a long sweeping pass across the backfield, soaking up all the akak on its initial pass (so theres none to shoot it on its way back out) and then assaults a formation on the flank from behind, it hits 4 of the units and barges them across the table to the marine players frontline. the formation gets to countercharge (but being now some 90cm away from the target of the assault, aint nothing gonna make it there in time) at which point massive supporting fire wipes out the attackers and the formation breaks from an entire table away?)

also, do-able is completely a word. I shall use it in a sentence for you. "Karen Gillan is totally do-able"*

(*no aspersions are intended upon miss Gillans character, i'm not implying she is some sort of a loose woman that will allow anyone to give her a go, i'm just saying i'd quite like to put my bit in her bit)

Agreed Tim - The short answer is 'No'.
Under 4.2.1, Aircraft can fly over terrain, ZoC and even units etc, the only point where they actually *barge* is when they land at the end of their approach move. As they have no movement at that point, all that happens is the enemy troops are moved out from under the transport to prevent them being squashed :)

What you are trying to describe is the notion of barging the enemy as the final part of the approach move; continuing to fly a short distance off the ground (so not becoming a 'ground unit' with zero movement). However this is an either/or situation;
either you are making an "approach move" flying over everything; or the WE has landed (with a 0cm movement).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:37 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 6:12 am
Posts: 1331
Location: Australia
i'll try again:

a flier that is flying has a movement of "whatever the hell it wants"
a flier that is landed has a movement of "0cm"

barging accounts for when you move over a model, you push it out of the way.
a landed flier cannot possibly move over a model, because it has a movement of 0cm

so the options are:
A) a flier may not barge, because it cannot "move over an enemy model" until it is landed, at which point it has a move of 0cm (note: this method is supported by the "aircraft ignore other models while flying" part of the rules)
or B) a flier may barge while still flying, provided it is making a ground assault.

if B) is true, then there are no restrictions as to how far it can move while doing so, and infact, the "ignore enemy figures and ZoC" part of the rules suggest it could fly right into the middle of a formation and barge the enemy SC across the table if it so wanted

personally, i think A) is much more likely (and much less silly) but i note that most people seem to work under the C) option which is sort of a halfway blend between A) and B) ie: aircraft ignore ZoC and figures until they suddenly appear and push everyone away from them like a big rock fell, which is even less supported by the rules than the other two options, because it selectively enforces differently them at arbitrary points along the sequence (hence the confusion as to what is allowed and when)

[edit] it is also worth pointing out that when a unit planetfalls (ie: drops like a rock) on top of another unit, the planetfalling unit moves to not be touching the enemy figure. it seems reasonable to me that the same should be considered true of any other circumstance that causes a unit to suddenly appear ontop of another unit [/edit]

_________________
~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:47 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:34 pm
Posts: 426
Quote:
Under 4.2.1, Aircraft can fly over terrain, ZoC and even units etc, the only point where they actually *barge* is when they land at the end of their approach move. As they have no movement at that point, all that happens is the enemy troops are moved out from under the transport to prevent them being squashed :)
Jaggedtoothgrin wrote:
i'll try again:

a flier that is flying has a movement of "whatever the hell it wants"
a flier that is landed has a movement of "0cm"

barging accounts for when you move over a model, you push it out of the way.
a landed flier cannot possibly move over a model, because it has a movement of 0cm

so the options are:

A) a flier may not barge, because it cannot "move over an enemy model" until it is landed, at which point it has a move of 0cm (note: this method is supported by the "aircraft ignore other models while flying" part of the rules)

B) a flier may barge while still flying, provided it is making a ground assault.

if B) is true, then there are no restrictions as to how far it can move while doing so, and infact, the "ignore enemy figures and ZoC" part of the rules suggest it could fly right into the middle of a formation and barge the enemy SC across the table if it so wanted

personally, i think A) is much more likely (and much less silly) but i note that most people seem to work under the C) option which is sort of a halfway blend between A) and B) ie: aircraft ignore ZoC and figures until they suddenly appear and push everyone away from them like a big rock fell, which is even less supported by the rules than the other two options, because it selectively enforces differently them at arbitrary points along the sequence (hence the confusion as to what is allowed and when)
quote]


I think the problem your having grasping this is because of the option you quote in example A, Flyers may move over enemy units and even through there ZoC as Ginger has quoted from the rules in 4.2.1 , but what your trying to do is give the impression that you can become into base to base contact with enemy units why you are still airborne which is incorrect, contact only occurs once the Aircraft has landed, and then the barge happens as a resulting factor of your landing action.


Tim NZ


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:18 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 6:12 am
Posts: 1331
Location: Australia
i can grasp that as a concept, i just dont see where it is in any way supported by the rules. all these instances appear to be a "we just do it this way"

we can all agree that:

a 0cm move model cannot possibly move over an enemy model (except when initiating an assault while on a road, but thats a seperate issue) because it has a 0cm move

a barge can only apply to models that would otherwise be moved over during the course of the move of a model

while flying, an aircraft ignores models, meaning it cannot "move over them"

so, while flying, an aircraft ignores any models it flies over
then it lands, which allows it to barge any models it moves over from that point on
except that with a move of 0cm, it cannot move over any other models, meaning no barging can take place

here are a few rule quotes:
"Enemy units may never move over or through each other."
"War engines follow the same movement rules as any other unit."
"When a war engine charges it is allowed to ‘barge’ any non-war engine units belonging to the target formation out of the way and carry on with its charge move."
"If the unit lands ... on top of any sort of unit (friend or foe), ... then it is assumed that on-board automatic guidance systems will divert it towards a safe landing point and the unit is moved by the opposing player to the nearest area of clear ground where it can land."

so what we have is the only instance covered in the rules where a figure ever gets placed on top of another. the rules clearly state that in this case, the figure that is landing gets moved.

so, the rules in no way cover "you land on people and move them out of the way" or infact, any degree of barging by aircraft at all. the only reasonable response is to only allow aircraft to land in places where they could reasonably land to begin with. anything else is simply making up rules.

_________________
~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:59 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:16 pm
Posts: 4643
Location: Downers Grove, IL
You raise good points. I'm not sure I agree, but an official FAQ would be good.

Thoughts:

The last quote has no relevance to Air Assault, being part of the Planetfall rules. They can be taken at most as an example of a tangential but related circumstance.

Air Assault wrote:
Transport Aircraft are allowed to land as described above, and then it and any units that disembark are allowed to fight an assault instead of shooting.


3.3.1 Charge Moves wrote:
When a War Engine charges it is allowed to 'barge' any non-war engine units belonging to the target formation out of the way and carry on with its charge move. Move the War Engine as far as desired, and then place any units that were barged out of the way as close as you can to their starting point, while still touching the base of the War Engine that so rudely pushed them aside.


The real question therefore is whether the landing itself can be considered a "charge move" for the purposes of the rules. If it can, the WE/AC can barge any units it lands on out of the way. If it cannot, your logic holds up. I would tend to say that landing does constitute a charge move. It is perfectly permissable for other units to have a chage move of 0cm, so I see no reason that would not hold true here as well. The war engine can move "as far as desired" so again, 0cm moves will allow barging. In every other circimstance the chances of barging with a move of 0cm are nil, but in this interaction of rules I think it becomes not only possible, but permissable.

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:51 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:14 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Western Australia
Ginger wrote:
Onyx wrote:
Ginger wrote:
'inside' the Target formation
S - 6cm - TA - z

Here the scouts ZoC extends to 'z' covering the point where the Landa has dropped on top of the Target, and this mimics the position in the FAQ quoted above. I think it is this situation that you are suggesting is debatable. However, I repeat that even here, you have simultaneously entered both ZoCs which is what makes it 'illegal'.

I'm not sure I fully understand this point... :-[ ;D
Are you stating that it is not possible to land the Landa and do an assault in this situation (by the use of the word illegal)?

It is possible to enter the ZoC of 2 separate formations simultaneously (as described in the FAQ quote above) and still assault the nearest formation legally.
Dropping a Landa in the middle of the target formation (ie Hydras) is fulfilling the same requirements as the FAQ and seems to be possible to me. The Landa is entering 2 formations ZoC and moving into base contact with the nearest unit.
This all seems do-able (if that's a word :D ) to me...?

Yes, I am stating that IMHO, it is 'illegal' to drop the Landa onto a target formation which is covered by the scouts ZoC in the circumstances described.

The FAQ describes a situation where the Attacker does *not* in fact enter both ZoCs simultaneously which is the whole point. If it were indeed entering both ZoCs simultaneously, then the Scouts would be intermingled with the Target because of the depth of the target base/vehicle and consequently the entire lot could be charged anyway. The FAQ was actually written to explain the point that, once the Target's ZoC has been entered, the Scouts ZoC does not prevent the Attacker from moving into B-B as part of an assault.

Dropping an air assault onto the target is not actually fulfilling the circumstances in the FAQ in that it is not entering the Target ZoC before entering the Scouts ZoC.

(phew - I tend to agree with you Z ;) )

So what happens if the Scout formation's and target formation's ZoC are entered simultaneously by a ground formation (a possible scenario which the FAQ would seem to cover) but the attacker does not want to declare an intermingled assault? By your interpretation of the FAQ, the attacker could not do the assault.

I would argue that the intent of the FAQ is that once in a ZoC (or multiple ZoC) you must always head for the nearest enemy unit regardless of formation and regardless of timing of entering ZoC.

A Landa can do this and head for the non-scout formation fulfilling the FAQ requirements.

As a tournament organiser here in Perth, I will be allowing the Landa into multipule ZoC assault unless I hear an official responce that disallows it. Nothing mentioned here so far convinces me that the Landa into multiple ZoC is breaking the intent of the FAQ.

As for the WE/barge question, it's a non issue for me. A WE plane can barge a ground unit out of the way if the ground unit is directly underneath the plane as it touches the ground (the ground unit will be placed in direct base contact with the plane). Quite simple and easy to understand/play.

Landing can definitely constitutes a Charge move or the Orks would not be able to claim the +2 to their activation when calling a Landa assault. What else could an aircraft assault be classed as?

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:02 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 1832
Location: Oslo, Norway
Onyx wrote:
Landing can definitely constitutes a Charge move or the Orks would not be able to claim the +2 to their activation when calling a Landa assault. What else could an aircraft assault be classed as?


Per the standard rules, a Ground Attack action, which Orks do get +2 to activate.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:13 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:14 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Western Australia
Ulrik wrote:
Onyx wrote:
Landing can definitely constitutes a Charge move or the Orks would not be able to claim the +2 to their activation when calling a Landa assault. What else could an aircraft assault be classed as?


Per the standard rules, a Ground Attack action, which Orks do get +2 to activate.

An Ork Landa could not enter a ZoC on a Ground Attack action.

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:22 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 6:12 am
Posts: 1331
Location: Australia
actually, any form of landing is a ground attack, it says so rather clearly that "An aircraft must carry out a ground attack action"
the "air assault" version of which specifically says that they "may enter enemy zones of control as if they were charging."
which says two things:
1. it isnt a charge
2. it is not treated as a charge except for the ability to enter enemy zones of control

_________________
~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:50 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:14 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Western Australia
Would you happen to be a lawyer Jaggedtoothgrin :D

It's still straight forward for me. WE's can barge.
As Legion 4 would say DWWFY (do what works for you).

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:49 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:16 pm
Posts: 4643
Location: Downers Grove, IL
Jaggedtoothgrin wrote:
actually, any form of landing is a ground attack, it says so rather clearly that "An aircraft must carry out a ground attack action"
the "air assault" version of which specifically says that they "may enter enemy zones of control as if they were charging."
which says two things:
1. it isnt a charge
2. it is not treated as a charge except for the ability to enter enemy zones of control


If they may enter enemy ZoC as if they were charging, they must attempt to reach base contact once they enter the ZoC. Along with the WE charging rules, this means if they do reach BtB while entering enemy ZoC, they can barge. Therefore, if they land on units (reaching BtB) they can then barge those units.

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 81 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net