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Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repost

 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:38 am 
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Thanks for the replies Ginger and Nealhunt. My main interest in exactly how these rules interact remains to work out methods to prevent Landas/THs assaulting key formations rather than trying string out scouts in A B A B, but it serves a good purpose in illustrating the rules.

If this is correct

Quote:
As Ginger notes, there are 2 "must do" rules in a charge move - do not enter ZoC except the target, and must move to base contact once you enter the ZoC of a unit. The "must reach base contact" takes precedence. So, once you enter the ZoC of the target, you can proceed to base contact.


Then in this example...

Quote:
Screening with scouts
This works as SG explained:- if placed 6-10cm away from the Hydras, the enemy may not land on the Hydras as they are entering the scouts Zoc, and they may not attack both formations as they are not intermingled. As CS says, the enemy must strip away the scouts first in some fashion.


...all a Landa would need to do is land in contact with the Hydras in the example below, saying that they are the target of the assault and the Landa and its contents would then be in both the Hydra's ZoC and the scout's ZoC but with the base contact with hydras taking precidence.


Or in a nutshell, if moving in to base contact circumvents the rule that the enemy may not enter a second non-intermingled formation's ZoC, then using scouts to screen against Landas would not work if the Landa lands in base contact with the formation.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:47 am 
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Scout screens are really only effective against teleporting formations not airborne assaults.

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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:34 pm 
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Quote:
Screening with scouts
This works as SG explained:- if placed 6-10cm away from the Hydras, the enemy may not land on the Hydras as they are entering the scouts Zoc, and they may not attack both formations as they are not intermingled. As CS says, the enemy must strip away the scouts first in some fashion.


there is actually a question about that in the official FAQ on the gw site. Basically the answer was that you can't do a thing like that (screen a unit with scouts), and if your opponent tried something like that you're allowed to hit him over the head (or something like it :P).


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:51 pm 
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That FAQ refers specifically to scout screening from behind. Screening from in front of a unit is acceptable.

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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:18 pm 
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yeah well if my lander comes in from the other side, then you're screening from behind again, aren't you?


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:54 pm 
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Well, yes. But if you have to barge more than 6 models,you can't land at all. If you have to barge only 6, you're still trapping the transported units inside. Thus a dense formation can itself protect against air assault, particularly against a list with no Indirect artillery.

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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:55 pm 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Thanks for the replies Ginger and Nealhunt. My main interest in exactly how these rules interact remains to work out methods to prevent Landas/THs assaulting key formations rather than trying string out scouts in A B A B, but it serves a good purpose in illustrating the rules.

If this is correct

Quote:
As Ginger notes, there are 2 "must do" rules in a charge move - do not enter ZoC except the target, and must move to base contact once you enter the ZoC of a unit. The "must reach base contact" takes precedence. So, once you enter the ZoC of the target, you can proceed to base contact.


Then in this example...

Quote:
Screening with scouts
This works as SG explained:- if placed 6-10cm away from the Hydras, the enemy may not land on the Hydras as they are entering the scouts Zoc, and they may not attack both formations as they are not intermingled. As CS says, the enemy must strip away the scouts first in some fashion.


...all a Landa would need to do is land in contact with the Hydras in the example below, saying that they are the target of the assault and the Landa and its contents would then be in both the Hydra's ZoC and the scout's ZoC but with the base contact with hydras taking precidence.


Or in a nutshell, if moving in to base contact circumvents the rule that the enemy may not enter a second non-intermingled formation's ZoC, then using scouts to screen against Landas would not work if the Landa lands in base contact with the formation.

Your question about simultaneously entering the ZoC of both formations is a good one. I have always understood that this was not allowed; to attack an individual formation, you have to enter the ZoC of that formation first , (only then ignoring other ZoCs as you move to the relevant unit). Put another way, if you enter both ZoCs simultaneously, you have to attack both formations - which you cannot do as they are not intermingled.

So, in this example we have a formation of three Hydras huddled together in the centre of a formation of four sentinals that are spaced out in a square, each ~6cms from the Hydras. The Landa may not drop onto the Hydras as it is entering the ZoC of the scouts which it is not attacking. However, if the Hydras were spaced out and the Sentinals moved further away from the Hydras, this could leave a landa shaped hole in the centre of the formation which the Orcs could legitimately exploit.

As to landing on top of the target formation, notionally this is permissible provided that it can be done outside the ZoC of other formations (eg scouts). However, as SG points out, you run the risk of being pinned inside the transport and also you may find it hard to get enough deployment room within 5 cm of the transport (as the space is now occupied by very upset enemy units that have been pushed out of the way :))


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:58 pm 
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Well, yes. But if you have to barge more than 6 models,you can't land at all. If you have to barge only 6, you're still trapping the transported units inside. Thus a dense formation can itself protect against air assault, particularly against a list with no Indirect artillery.


I don't get it - why do I have to barge anything? Might as well stay in FF range. Isn't that totally independent from the fact that one unit's ZOC is used to protect another unit from assault? Which in my opinion (and somewhat according to GW FAQ) can be considered cheesy.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:17 pm 
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If you are closer to the assaulted formation than the Scouts, per the GW FAQ, you need to be inside the scout cordon. That means you are assaulting into the formation itself, and will neccessarily barg units out of the way unless they are extremely spread out. Additionally, in the case of a Scout cordon 6cm away form the guarded formation, the scout ZoC will extend 16cm out from the formation you are trying to attack, which means the only way to reach engage range is to hit the inside.

Why do you consider this cheesy? It is one of the main tactical reasons to take scouts. The GW doc disallows screening from behind specifically. This indicates that screening from the front is not only allowed, but intended, otherwise they would not need to make an exception.

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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:23 pm 
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Here is the FAQ in question.

Quote:
2.1.12 Scout
Q: It’s possible to place a Scout unit just behind another friendly unit, so that the Scouts 10cm ZOC covers the friendly unit too. If this happens, can I charge the non-Scout unit? The rules
say I can’t enter a ZOC unless I’m charging the unit it belongs to.
A: You are, of course, allowed to charge the unit! If an explanation is needed, then
let’s say that the rule for moving into base contact with the enemy takes precedence
over the rule for not entering another unit’s ZOC. However, any player who has
attempted to use this tactic to stop a charge should hang their head in shame!

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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:33 pm 
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
If you are closer to the assaulted formation than the Scouts, per the GW FAQ, you need to be inside the scout cordon.


wut? sorry I don't understand a word :P

Quote:
That means you are assaulting into the formation itself, and will neccessarily barg units out of the way unless they are extremely spread out.


which formation? scouts or my original target? again, why do I have to barge? As soon as my unit enters a ZOC, I move it in base contact. If I don't want that, I stay out of your ZOC.

Quote:
Additionally, in the case of a Scout cordon 6cm away form the guarded formation, the scout ZoC will extend 16cm out from the formation you are trying to attack, which means the only way to reach engage range is to hit the inside.


hmm hmm not sure if I get this. You are assuming that the scouts are between me and my target, and the distance between scouts and target is 6cm. So as soon as I come closer than 16 cm to my target (coming from the "front") I will enter the scout's ZOC.

Quote:
Why do you consider this cheesy? It is one of the main tactical reasons to take scouts. The GW doc disallows screening from behind specifically. This indicates that screening from the front is not only allowed, but intended, otherwise they would not need to make an exception.

[/quote]

screening from the front is perfectly ok with me. After all, the formation "behind" the scouts would not be able to interfere with the assault, because the standard ZOC is 5cm, and if you are within 5 cm of another unit, I can make it an intermingled assault.
Unless the second formation (the one "behind" the scouts) would be scouts as well, in which case we are dealing with the FAQ again - "hang your head in shame!" ;)

cheers,


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:16 pm 
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Hi mspaetauf, I am not sure I understand your question regarding protecting a formation using a scout screen.
I presume that the position regarding Teleporters is clear, so the issue seems to lie in making an air assault on a target formation that is screened by scouts.

There are essentially three possible positions that the Attacker (‘A’) can be placed relative to the Target (‘T’) and the Scouts (‘S’).
(Note in the following three examples I am using a linear diagram, but obviously the scouts are placed in a semi-circle centred on 'T' the target)
  1. 'outside' the scout screen
    A - - - S - 6cm - T

    As the scouts ZoC is 10cm and they are 6cm from the intended target, the Attacker is now 16cm from the target and thus out of assault range.
  2. 'inside' the scout screen
    S - 6cm - AT

    Here the Attacker has landed inside the Scouts ZoC between the scouts and the target. This is 'illegal' as the attacker is not attacking the Scouts but has simultaneously entered both ZoCs
  3. 'inside' the Target formation
    S - 6cm - TA - z

    Here the scouts ZoC extends to 'z' covering the point where the Landa has dropped on top of the Target, and this mimics the position in the FAQ quoted above. I think it is this situation that you are suggesting is debatable. However, I repeat that even here, you have simultaneously entered both ZoCs which is what makes it 'illegal'.

The last position is subtly different from the FAQ, which actually describes the following situation
S - 6cm - T - zs -zt - - - A

Here the Attacker starts on the ground some distance from the target, declares an assault and in moving into contact with the target, it enters the ZoC of the scouts (zs) that are positioned behind the Target. The difference is that the attacker enters the Target ZoC (zt) first - and thus ignores the scout ZoC .

Does that make more sense??


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:22 pm 
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Can you 'barge' units in a formation so that they intermingle with another?


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:35 pm 
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Intermingled formations would be determined before the charge, so technically no. Although you could leave them in an intermingled position, assuming you lost and they couldn't consolodate out of it. :P

With a big enough move, however, you can drag a whole bunch of stuff into friendly support range and out of enemy support range.

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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:06 am 
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Ginger wrote:
'inside' the Target formation
S - 6cm - TA - z

Here the scouts ZoC extends to 'z' covering the point where the Landa has dropped on top of the Target, and this mimics the position in the FAQ quoted above. I think it is this situation that you are suggesting is debatable. However, I repeat that even here, you have simultaneously entered both ZoCs which is what makes it 'illegal'.

I'm not sure I fully understand this point... :-[ ;D
Are you stating that it is not possible to land the Landa and do an assault in this situation (by the use of the word illegal)?

It is possible to enter the ZoC of 2 separate formations simultaneously (as described in the FAQ quote above) and still assault the nearest formation legally.
Dropping a Landa in the middle of the target formation (ie Hydras) is fulfilling the same requirements as the FAQ and seems to be possible to me. The Landa is entering 2 formations ZoC and moving into base contact with the nearest unit.
This all seems do-able (if that's a word :D ) to me...?

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