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Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repost

 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:16 am 
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Thanks fo rhte reply Kealios

Quote:
"there's no way that formation should be able to march 105cm!". The difference in time scale doesnt really matter.


This would be a formation with a 35cm movement and it marched. Actually that kind of mobility on the battlefield is possible. Not only have I read many examples of it, but I have actually experienced it myself (Ft. Irwin as a member of the OPFOR).The basic rule of thumb, in military circles, is resistance impedes movement, and this would be ANY resistance. Yes infantry that cannot harm tanks can slow them down as their fire, while ineffective, could be a portent of something real dangerous rearing its ugly head. So the tankers slow down and become catious.

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He also isnt 100% fond of the victory conditions being "known", but then again, his favorite board game has changing conditions, so...there's no accounting for taste


Actually most grunts, who have been around the block just a couple of times (Old Men, Old Lags, Gronards, Seen the Elephant, etc...) can pretty quickly figure out what ground is important to the enemy, and what ground is important to their side. Basically it isn't really rocket science, if you can read a map you can figure it out. Now how one goes about using that knowledge against the enemy is what is important. In Epic-A you can pretty much hand one Take and Hold over to the opponent and still win with the enemy having zero objectives. So there actually is wiggle room to use.

In any case I will be presenting a modified scenario generator (Here at Tac Command), based upon the Gran Tourny Scenario, that introduces 'unknown objectives' into the mix, and deployment based upon the type of basic strategy a player wishes to use. We have been using it on and off for my 'Tree Campaigns' for awhile now so it does work. It is just easier to explain in person how it works, then in the printed word and that is what is delaying its release right now.

Quote:
E:A is about moving formations into areas that they can be effective when the call for action comes...ie Double Tapping to give support fire to an assault, clipping assaults, march moves on Turn 4 to grab objectives, etc. In fact, moving is like 80% of the game, I think.


If you mean by maneuver then I agree, if you mean just by pure movement alone then I disagree (I do think you mean the former). For example you said you play Eldar, so lightning strikes and bold sweeping maneuvers are the norm for that army. I have watched more then one Ork player reduce an Eldar army to a crawl, using containment, box them in one corner of the battlefiled, and then crush them. Your friend isn't thinking outside the box (The unit/formation stats) and should be paying more attention to the big picture (The entire scope of the battlefield) IE how forces interact and act with each other across the entire front. There is much more to Epic-A then many players realize. (No insult intended here as I am even today still learning more new ways to maneuver in the game, and I was in the project almost from the start. It is one of the things I love about the game, something new can still be found)

I hope some of this commentary helps you give your friend a better appreciation of the game, so that both of you get to enjoy it more.

Jaldon

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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:11 am 
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EA reminds me of several WWII/modern historical games I've played, that had a lot of movement/maneuver in them. (Operation Brevity and Crossfire among others.) These games always struck me as better than those where your units crawled around just throwing shells at one another at long range. Modern (and not just modern) warfare is about very much maneuver, which Jaldon so rightly points out. This is one of the main appeals of the game, you get to play in the cool sci-fi world of 40K with decent rules that reward planning, timing and an eye for terrain. You should try and convince your friend to tough it out and try and get his head around it, in the end I think he will thank you..


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:35 am 
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I've been challenged to my first game against Orks soon, using the Krieg army I'm currently building.

I've got a grip on most of the Ork's rules from reading the unit data, but would like to ask how people deal with a Landa. Specifically, is there any way via deployment or placement or control zones to prevent it assaulting into a very valuable artillery formation or ways in which the damage can be mitigated? Does the Landa get to barge units out of the way on arrival in a similar manner to conventional War Engines?

I'm not overly optimistic about the chances of a formation of 3 Hydras to take a Landa down, even assuming they aren't suppressed before it arrives.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:41 am 
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The typical strategy is to screen off the Artillery with scouts: You can make sure there is no room to land inside and simuntaneously keep out of 5cm so you aren't intermingled.

Short answer to the barging question is I don't know. I suspect it can't due to the fact that usually barging involved pushing units out of the way, and a landed aircraft is treated as immobile. I could easily be wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:02 am 
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As I understand it, it can't barge past one formation to assault another, as long as you screen your arty with scouts and keep them out of 5cm to prevent them being called intermingled it can't asaault your artillery. It's all down to how ZOCs work, you can only enter the ZOC of the formation you're assaulting unless the formations are intermingled.

Then again it's only a matter of time till your opponent realises that a decent sized FB formation can easily strip a scout screen for a retain with the Landa. I don't really rate the 3 hydra fm either, it's scares off an early air attack which I suppose is good but if you kill one they're useless.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:55 am 
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Screening with scouts
This works as SG explained:- if placed 6-10cm away from the Hydras, the enemy may not land on the Hydras as they are entering the scouts Zoc, and they may not attack both formations as they are not intermingled. As CS says, the enemy must strip away the scouts first in some fashion.

Barging
As the Landa is a 3DC WE, it may barge like any other WE:- in this case it lands on top of some units in the formation which are then moved to be in contact with the Landa (possibly pushing others as they do so). Provided only 5 enemy units are contacted in this fashion, the contents of the Landa can disembark into the fray - moving directly towards other units within 5cm (ZcC) etc.

Hyrda placement
A matter of personal preference. A single unit in centre of the major formations is usually hard to supress, so will place a BM on an air assaulting formation. If that formation has a Commisar and is also on OW, the air assault will be attacking uphill and has a good chance of failing.

OTOH, the Hydra formation is a cheap activation. Usually placed between and to the rear of the main formations to provide AA umbrella against ground attacks. It becomes a cheap sacrifice as the formation air-assaulting it can usually be destroyed in retaliation. Alternatively it becomes an objective grabber later in the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:22 pm 
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Hyrda placement
A matter of personal preference. A single unit in centre of the major formations is usually hard to supress, so will place a BM on an air assaulting formation. If that formation has a Commisar and is also on OW, the air assault will be attacking uphill and has a good chance of failing.

I thought according to the rules that only units avaliable to fire are liable for suppresion ? so hence a single hydra in a leman russ company for example would be suppressed if the formation has just 1 BM ? or have i missed something ?

Cheers

Tim NZ


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:33 pm 
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Tim_nz: Suppression is just based on two thing; weapon range and line of fire. You don't have to have the correct weapon type to be suppressed. In the example you mention, the russ can be suppressed allowing the hydra to fire (depending on approach angle of course).

Even Small Arms weapons can be suppressed!


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:35 pm 
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All units are considered to have LoS to aircraft, so if they are in range, thay may be surpressed, even if they have no AA value.

See 4.2.4 in the Master FAQ on this site.

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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:53 pm 
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ah kool, cheers for that :D

Tim NZ


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:00 am 
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Quote:
Screening with scouts
This works as SG explained:- if placed 6-10cm away from the Hydras, the enemy may not land on the Hydras as they are entering the scouts Zoc, and they may not attack both formations as they are not intermingled. As CS says, the enemy must strip away the scouts first in some fashion.


Good idea, thanks. I will give it a try. Another idea I've been toying with is deploying valuable units like artillery in a very compact line against the board edge, then boxing them in tightly with bunkers to prevent Landas and Thunderhawks from landing (War Engines may not enter bunkers). With the bunkers empty there is no intermingling, and more disposible units on the other side of the bunkers block space with their control zones.

Sure its unconventional to have all the bunkers empty and at the back of the deployment zone, but its worth trying ideas outside the box.


Regarding how you have described screening with scounts:

Formations are only intermingled if they are within 5cm of each other
Only one formation can be assaulted at a time unless they are intermingled
Scouts only have to be within 20cm of another unit in their formation

Therefor:

Two scout formations (A and B) that are deployed A B A B A B A with 6cm between each unit from formation A and the nearest unit from formation B cannot be assaulted in close combat (because a close combat assault on either formation would enter the control zone of the other formation).

Correct?


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:06 am 
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War Engines can barge, wouldn't they just fly over the bunkers and clear a space right inside the formation?


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:25 am 
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Yes, but with the artillery right against the board edge and the bunkers flush against them there isn't space for the War Engines to land and barge anything. What I am doing is creating a space between the edge and the bunkers too narrow for a Thunderhawk to fit into.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:09 pm 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Quote:
Screening with scouts
This works as SG explained:- if placed 6-10cm away from the Hydras, the enemy may not land on the Hydras as they are entering the scouts Zoc, and they may not attack both formations as they are not intermingled. As CS says, the enemy must strip away the scouts first in some fashion.


Regarding how you have described screening with scounts:

Formations are only intermingled if they are within 5cm of each other
Only one formation can be assaulted at a time unless they are intermingled
Scouts only have to be within 20cm of another unit in their formation

Therefore:

Two scout formations (A and B) that are deployed A B A B A B A with 6cm between each unit from formation A and the nearest unit from formation B cannot be assaulted in close combat (because a close combat assault on either formation would enter the control zone of the other formation).

Correct?

Not quite, but very, very close :)
This is a complicated area and I may well be incorrect, but in my understanding the answer revolves around the timing of when a unit enters different ZoC; the unit must enter the ZoC of the targt first, and it then moves directly towards that unit ignoring other ZoCs.

In the case of scouts surrounding the outside of a target so that their ZoC actually covers target units, the enemy teleported / air assault would effectively enter the scout ZoC first - deemed illegal as it is not entering the target ZoC first. Nor can the attacker advance across the table to get into firefight range, because the scouts ZoC extends 20cm from the target unit.

However if the scout ZoC is covering the target from behind (extending in front of the target unit), either it only extends 4cm in front to avoid being intermingled (in which case the target ZoC extends beyond that of the scout) or the scouts are actually intermingled and declared as such. Furthermore, the target can be assaulted in FF from beyond either ZoC, somewhere in the (notional) 6cm to 15cm range from the target.

To your example,
  • either set of scouts can be engaged in a FF assault outside either ZoC;
  • one or other can have a single unit 'clipped' on either end in CC,
  • even a frontal CC assault is potentially possible by carefull positioning (each unit placed opposite a 'target' will enter that target's ZoC before encountering the ZoC of the other formation), though other units may be needed to maintain formation coherency. Of course 'Infiltrate' also helps here - so Marine scouts would relish the opportunity of taking on some opponents positioned as you describe :)

I hope that helps


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 Post subject: Re: Ork General Strategy and Unit Commentary - 5-21-10 repos
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Two scout formations (A and B) that are deployed A B A B A B A with 6cm between each unit from formation A and the nearest unit from formation B cannot be assaulted in close combat (because a close combat assault on either formation would enter the control zone of the other formation).

Correct?

No. As Ginger notes, there are 2 "must do" rules in a charge move - do not enter ZoC except the target, and must move to base contact once you enter the ZoC of a unit. The "must reach base contact" takes precedence. So, once you enter the ZoC of the target, you can proceed to base contact.

Of course, with formations spread out that much it would be much easier to just do a clipping assault on the scouts. Even low-FF units should win handily.


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