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Biel-tan Tactics

 Post subject: Biel-tan Tactics
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 3:24 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 08 May 2009, 12:03 )

So now I am confused

Are people stating that the lists in the Handbook 2008 Change version are either too powerful or incorrect? This is the one that we are using and the one I finally got all my players to read and play with... personally I feel the rules make more sense...hence I am now confused...

People are saying that the 2008 handbook is out-of-date, in fact it was never really in-date. It contained all the experimental rules changes, many of which had already been rejected by the time the handbook came out.

The rules by which most people now play is the offical rules + latest official errata. There are some subtle but important differences between this and the handbok, for example the MW BP rules.

List-wise, most people seem to be using the official lists + netERC recommended changes rather than the older, more radical lists in the handbook.

The handbook was a great idea for user-friendliness, but it gave an "officiality" to some changes that never should have been cemented in that way.

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 Post subject: Biel-tan Tactics
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 3:56 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 08 May 2009, 12:03 )

Are people stating that the lists in the Handbook 2008 Change version are either too powerful or incorrect?

The handbook is unofficial and incorrect.

Basically, the Handbook included all changes under consideration at the time.  Not all were adopted by the official errata and FAQ.

That said, even though it's not official, it's functional.  Play with it if you want.  Just don't show up at a tourney and expect to use it.

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 Post subject: Biel-tan Tactics
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 12:23 am 
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So what are the chances of seeing an E:A Handbook 2009 that includes only the bona fides? That strikes me as the best solution.

It would also be good to have the latest-and-greatest community-accepted army lists (eg Tau, Necrons, Tyranids) in there.

Just sayin'...  :)

By the way, where does the E:A Compendium 1.1 I just found fit in with this discussion? Is that the document I'm looking for, but without the army lists? (I dig how it provides the relevant FAQs within each section, for example. Tres awesome.)


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 Post subject: Biel-tan Tactics
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 12:26 am 
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Quote: (GR00V3R @ 09 May 2009, 00:23 )

So what are the chances of seeing an E:A Handbook 2009 that includes only the bona fides? That strikes me as the best solution.

The NetERC is working with Jervis to get the updated rulebook posted to the GW website.

As to armylists, since most (if not all) of the unpublished ones are still in development, there's not really a good reason to compile them.

The "Compendium" is, I believe, just a compilation of the 2008 Errata and the official rules, so it should be a decent reference for now.  I've not reviewed it at all, but Hojyn is a good bloke.

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 Post subject: Biel-tan Tactics
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 7:10 am 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ 08 May 2009, 15:56 )

The handbook is unofficial and incorrect.

Basically, the Handbook included all changes under consideration at the time.  Not all were adopted by the official errata and FAQ.

That said, even though it's not official, it's functional.  Play with it if you want.  Just don't show up at a tourney and expect to use it.

I did as close to a side by side comparison of the Handbook (Markconz) and the Compendium (Hojyn) as I could manage, and with the exception of two sections (Skimmers and Indirect Fire) which I haven't compared yet, I've found the following differences for Chapters 1-4.

Handbook
- Commander adds 'defensive intermingling'
- Barrage MW uses AP regardless of opponent armor type
- Disallows Aircraft Sniping
- Allows optionally Aircarft Escorts
- Adds Disposable and Support Craft special abilities

Compendium
- Allows diagonal deployments

Are there any things that were rejected that I haven't listed above?

Morgan Vening


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 Post subject: Biel-tan Tactics
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 12:40 pm 
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Quote: (Morgan Vening @ 09 May 2009, 07:10 )

Compendium
- Allows diagonal deployments

This has been in existence since the original printing of the Epic: Armageddon rules, this wasn't added via errata.

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 Post subject: Biel-tan Tactics
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 2:27 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 09 May 2009, 12:40 )

This has been in existence since the original printing of the Epic: Armageddon rules, this wasn't added via errata.

I was just pointing out differences. Handbook specifically states 'The first objective a player sets up must be placed on their own table edge.' for deployment. Be hard to argue that also meant 'corner'. I do like the idea of corners, and may start to consider it, but doesn't it give an advantage to units with a longer range/faster movement?

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 Post subject: Biel-tan Tactics
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 2:39 pm 
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Quote: (Morgan Vening @ 09 May 2009, 14:27 )

I was just pointing out differences. Handbook specifically states 'The first objective a player sets up must be placed on their own table edge.' for deployment. Be hard to argue that also meant 'corner'. I do like the idea of corners, and may start to consider it, but doesn't it give an advantage to units with a longer range/faster movement?

Page 64 of the 2008 Handbook:

6.1.2 Set-up
Set up the terrain for the game in any mutually
agreeable manner. If one player sets up the terrain then
his opponent may choose where to deploy. If you set up
the terrain as a joint effort or it was set up by a
tournament organiser then the player with the higher
strategy rating may choose the table edge he sets up on.
If both players have the same strategy rating, then dice
to see who gets the choice of table edge. You can pick a
long edge, or a corner (half way up each long and short
edge
)
. The opponent sets up on the opposite edge or
corner.

Corner deployment has it's own set of advantages and disadvantages and still makes for a fair and exciting game... and, strategically, it can really shake an opponent who hasn't faced it before.  Back when I was more of a "hard core" tournament player (i.e., when there were actually Epic Tournaments going on around here), I'd often pick corner deployment just for the psychological effect on my opponent.  *laugh*  I've become nicer since then.




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 Post subject: Biel-tan Tactics
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 3:32 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 08 May 2009, 04:54 )

Quote: (Irisado @ 24 Apr. 2009, 16:54 )

I wrote an Eldar Guide for Warhammer 40,000,

Yes please.

Is this online to read?

Yes, it is online and available to read, feel free to PM me for details.

On the subject of the Warlock Titan, I found it worked well in my 5000 point game, but I feel it costs too many points to take in a 3000 or 4000 point battle, and that you will, most likely, end up not having enough activations if you include it in an army list of those points sizes.

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 Post subject: Biel-tan Tactics
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 11:37 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 09 May 2009, 14:39 )

Page 64 of the 2008 Handbook:

*snip*

Corner deployment has it's own set of advantages and disadvantages and still makes for a fair and exciting game... and, strategically, it can really shake an opponent who hasn't faced it before.  Back when I was more of a "hard core" tournament player (i.e., when there were actually Epic Tournaments going on around here), I'd often pick corner deployment just for the psychological effect on my opponent.  *laugh*  I've become nicer since then.

Wow. Lookit that. That's what happens when you fail to comprehend what you read.

As for the psychological, next time I am up on SR, I fully intend to try it. Been playing a lot of IG and Ork against Eldar and Marine players, so...

How does the regular deployments work? Do you use a triangular 'from this half of side A to this half of Side B', or is it an L-shaped box 15cm wide?

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 Post subject: Biel-tan Tactics
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 12:41 am 
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Quote: (Morgan Vening @ 09 May 2009, 23:37 )

is it an L-shaped box 15cm wide?

It's the L-shaped box.

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 Post subject: Biel-tan Tactics
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 6:12 am 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 09 May 2009, 12:26 )

Quote: (GR00V3R @ 09 May 2009, 00:23 )

So what are the chances of seeing an E:A Handbook 2009 that includes only the bona fides? That strikes me as the best solution.

The NetERC is working with Jervis to get the updated rulebook posted to the GW website.

As to armylists, since most (if not all) of the unpublished ones are still in development, there's not really a good reason to compile them.

The "Compendium" is, I believe, just a compilation of the 2008 Errata and the official rules, so it should be a decent reference for now.  I've not reviewed it at all, but Hojyn is a good bloke.

Yes the Handbook 2008 is 'out of date', but then it seems different groups around the world are now using all sorts of rules - with UK and France doing their own thing, and the 2008 Handbook still being used in Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere.

As to how the Handbook came about... the rule development situation in Epic leading up until 2008 was chaotic with no official response or organisation for a very long time due to cutbacks at Specialist Games. I got fed up after a couple of years, and took it upon myself to provide my group and other interested parties with an updated ruleset.  Changes were discussed for YEARS, and I set a deadline for a comprehensive document to be released early 2008, and at that point included all of Neal Hunts (default ERC head) recommended changes. Shortly after it was released (literally weeks) we finally heard back from Jervis, who threw out all almost all of the recommended army list changes (which aggravtated most people), and kept a wise selection of the core rules changes (which pleased most people).

The timing was unfortunate... as I was by that stage extremely busy with clinical work and didn't have time to update the Handbook myself. But I did give it to NetERC to do so, with blessing of Jervis to make it happen.

NetERC chose instead to update the official PDF's, which is commendable. However in hindsight perhaps this has not been as wise an investment of time as simply updating the Handbook, which continues to be popular, perhaps simply because it is far more user friendly and convenient than loads of different PDF's.

But anyway I've said in this thread http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... 69;t=11218

...a 2010 Handbook (tho not 2009) is something I'd like to do to hopefully help unify rules usage across the world.
I'm in no hurry because I don't consider Neal Hunt's 2008 amendments to be significantly worse than the current selection. They are perhaps better in some respects, perhaps worse in others. Also the longer I wait the more stuff the NetERC will have churned through and worked out... and the more motivation for updating I will have.  I also note Hojyn is working on a rules compilation, but have not had time to investigate this in more detail. And yes Hojyn is a good bloke!




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 Post subject: Biel-tan Tactics
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 5:23 pm 
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Hmmmmmmm A little off topic I feel!

Phantom


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 Post subject: Biel-tan Tactics
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:21 pm 
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Quote: (the phantom @ 12 May 2009, 05:23 )

Hmmmmmmm A little off topic I feel!

Phantom

Well the rules you choose to use might make a difference to Biel Tan tactics... though actually all the latest revisions are so close that almost certainly not...   :shutup:

But hopefully cleared up some of the misunderstandings about rulesets anyway.

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