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Orkeosaurus Tactics

 Post subject: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:30 pm 
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Hey dudes, didnt want to block up the ork review thread.


But hey was reading up on your guys tactics and totally understand your way to deal with them and that if they are nerfed the list would be terrible.

Had a look at the lists used in the UK tournaments and the results. Everything you guys say seams right and that they draw alot. Just wondered why alot of the lists arnt maxing out on the dinos and spamming boar boys? 5 Dinos 5 man boar boys for initiating assaults with 14 or so activations. Few macro AA mounted dinos?

I played them at castle, got totally wrecked my first time playing ferals and you probably heard it overseas when my jaw hit the ground finding out what stuff was as we were playing. Played them at heavy bolter and had a great game. Done a little bit of homework and knew what they do this time but wasnt the result i was after but was fun nonetheless. Went down 2-1 he had bts and they shall no pass and i had bts.

So i think i played it right but the assaut part. So i tried to clear as many boar boys early on with aircraft. 2 sets of telons 1 set of blades. Think i failed to break the 5 man units 2 out of the 3 times. Lost a telon to the dino AA. Amazing you can stick it on the dino. Apoc pointed it out to me and i passed it onto to fudd before the event (should have kept my mouth shut :P).

Dropped in on the bts with my deathstar 3 termies deamon prince 3 oblits and champ for raising deamon city. So raised a thirster and heaps of beast took the bts down to 1 dc and it fled. Got turn 2 and assaulted a dino killing it for bugger all damage in return. Then i managed to roll 2 crits and it stomped off half my formation allowing it to be shot and broken to lose my deamons and thirster. I would have been sitting 20cm or so from his blitz and presenting a massive threat.

Now i understand to FF it and break it this way. Easly could have moved up with chosen plinked it then assaulted FF. I doubt i would kill it off and then run the risk of it rallying. Also what if he rolls high and me low is this just bad luck? To hack it down i would have to waste more actions to get to it. All this time 5 man boar boys and dinos are running around.

Turn 3 i assaulted for FF against a dino with a mech company with a few flamers. Either did damage he rolled high me low i bounced, nice full mech company broken.

I totally agree not to nerf them and make the list terrible. But would it be possible to make the crit just an extra point of damage or its immobile for a turn? Immobile may be to much as it would be destroyed if if can run away from assaults.

Thoughts if ive got this wrong. Is there a safer way to play just sit back and contest turn 3 and 4 and try to just win on points? Not really keen on interstate to do this in games but. Should i have dropped in turn 3? Im pretty worried about this as my luck would be failed to activate with my SC.

Anyway thanks for your replies when they come.


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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:04 pm 
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The impression I get is that you obviously want steam gargants as they're a brilliant bts. Then the core is boars and saurus but people either add junkas for speed or garrisoning orks as blitz guard/mid board tar pit. Boars are great but can't use cover and have the ork issue of being very breakable and not rallying once broken. Garrisoning orks have a bit more staying power. The big tricks against them seem to be playing corners and putting the blitz as far away as possible, breaking the gargants to remove their shooting, picking off the boars and assaulting the saurus. Sure more regular feral opponents and players will have more detail.

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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:12 am 
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Ahh yeah sorry defs the gargants as bts. I understand the rally point of view but if theres more fomations thats more chance to rally? Its a 5+ to rally from memory so its 1 in every 3 rallying to be annoying but if it was a large formation then its only 1 chance to rally? Just my thoughts on it, its pretty common to see the boars double forward and most of you army is done and it their dinos to double forward last so you dont get the oppertunity to set up away from them, if you just sit back as long as possible it dosnt seam like your playing a game.


How about the crit any thoughts on it, would it make a huge difference if it was just 1 extra point of damage?


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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:44 am 
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You can pretty quickly change that 1/3 to 1/6 by keeping fast moving units (ideally with scout) in reserve to march to within 30cm of as many broken units as possible. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the stagger crit kill saurus if they run into a building? That's huge and well worth considering when placing objectives.

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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:04 pm 
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So say if you march within 3 formations to rally from a 5 to a 6, your going to lose a contesting or grabbing objective formation. Good chance you will being deep in dino land. To stop a formation rallying? Seams like trading a unbroken formation for a broken formation.

How many times has a dino been critted and ran into a building while sitting on an objective and how many times have the stomped on heaps of stuff in an assault?


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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:40 am 
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Well its slightly different to that on the rally front in that 6 units with a SC rallying on a 5+ is 2-3 units rallying while 6 rallying on a 6 is closer to 1 - plus it makes it far less likely that your opponent will have a really good rally phase which is huge! If that costs me a unit of rangers, stormboyz, landspeeders, scourges, I'm totally fine with that - they're there for exactly that purpose. Plus you can also use them to compel the saurus to assault them allowing you to get the assaults in that you really need/want!

Yeah, it doesn't happen often with the orkasaurus going into buildings but I've seen it happen and its blooming funny. I also think its slightly about incremental gains, it's not going to win you the game to draw the saurus towards impassible terrain but it makes it a little bit more likely!

Regarding your 1 extra DC for a crit question. It doesn't strike me as huge either way but they're already a unit with 2 massive inherent weaknesses (slow and not fearless), admittedly these are compensated for by being solid as a titanium bag full of granite, but its not like they really need taking down a peg. You'd need someone who plays as ferals regularly to give a really clear view on that one!

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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:50 am 
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Ahh great thanks man for your help. Im definitely going to use the building objective tactic when im using a more shooty army and hope it pays off, if it does i will definitely post the tale. chaos was more raise deamons and assault and pew pew from planes.

With the crit i just wanted to see interest instead of blocking up the ork thread with my babbling. I thought it would be win both ways. Seams like a punch in the pants if you get stomped on and a punch in the pants for them if they prep and assault and cop an unlucky crit and retreat from a combat and stalling it.


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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:19 pm 
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Norto wrote:
With the crit i just wanted to see interest instead of blocking up the ork thread with my babbling. I thought it would be win both ways. Seams like a punch in the pants if you get stomped on and a punch in the pants for them if they prep and assault and cop an unlucky crit and retreat from a combat and stalling it.


Yeah, it's definitely well Orky in that crits can be horrendous but also really helpful to the orks. I was also thinking the steam gargant crit is particularly brutal, totally destroys the gargant but hits everything within 2D6! Joy to despair in a heartbeat if you're assaulting the thing! Look forward to hearing how your experiments go. I always think there's no shame at all in running and hiding against ferals. That and playing as Krieg!

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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:34 pm 
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The ferals are an interesting list, whose strengths are also their weakness.
A bit like ATML, in that they really shouldn't lose the BTS, and can easily hold their own objectives, but really struggle to win.
This is especially true, if like Steve mentions, you go heavy on the steam gargants and sarus mobs.- most players then just use scout to slow the sarus and put the gins to the boar boys.

A few tips though.
Avoid the temptation to sit near buildings. Nothing will make your opponent happier than watching a crit sarus run into impassible and die.
Use the disgorging (getting out) to great effect in assaults and counter charges. Your opponent wants to plink you then fire fight. If they assault to close, your guys get out 5cm, then counter charge 5cm. Great fun against guardians.
Risk the treble. Doubles are a safe activation, and keep your AA cover in place. But unlike most armies, you don't need to worry about a nasty thunderbus assault. Your bigger threat is having your entire force sitting in your own half like an 80s Italian football team. As long as your safe from a FF assault, risk a failed activation and get those dinos charging in the first two turns.


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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:16 pm 
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Another big weakness is their inability to demech units (due to lack of decent shooting). It makes them vulnerable to being blitz rushed or just plain outmanouvered by the likes of steel/black legion etc - hence why tarpit garrisons can be a good move!

Dan's spot on about the counter charge, that can be brutal (especially with strip bases giving you a 14cm countercharge).

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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:31 pm 
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If im assaulting something and i stay 10.01 to 15cm away and they counter and unload and b2b me i would use some aussie slang at them, if your counter is 10cm then its fine. 5 cm counter and unload is max 10cm. If others wana play it that way fine, but it wouldnt fly against me.


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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:40 pm 
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Norto wrote:
If im assaulting something and i stay 10.01 to 15cm away and they counter and unload and b2b me i would use some aussie slang at them, if your counter is 10cm then its fine. 5 cm counter and unload is max 10cm. If others wana play it that way fine, but it wouldnt fly against me.


The root cause of this is all thanks to poor wording in the rulebook unfortunately... it makes no distinction between 'within' and 'wholly within' for disembarking from a vehicle and unfortunately countercharges fall into the 'within' camp, so provided a teeny tiny part of the base is within 5cm of the vehicle, that's a legal disembark move, coupled with the 5cm counntercharge, you can easily BTB stuff more than 10cm away as the rules are written.

not saying it's necessarily a good rule, but there you go.... it is what it is

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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:07 pm 
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Its a 5 min warm up thing yeah? So if its not discussed it wont fly with me. Its a strategy and dice game. If someone wants to really play that way id be fine but im moving my guys back unless it was brought up before hand and i forgot it would be my own fault. If i wasnt allowes to id be thats cool if you really want to win that way. I just wouldnt have put my guys there.

To me it says counter charge 5 and you can unload 5cm. Thats 10cm.


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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:24 pm 
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5 min warmup probably, or down to a TO/group (like EpicUK or EpicAU) to set things ahead of time, I'm fairly sure that EUK permit the situation as described above, only part of the base has to remain within 5cm of the transport, so you can reach things over 10cm away (or 15cm for speed >=30cm) with a standard countercharge with mounted troops

the rulebook uses 'within' for many things, but never 'wholly within' so it's about consistency really, if you're going to say that troops can only disembark wholly within 5cm, then it's probably quite reasonable to insist that units have to be wholly within 5cm (or 20cm for scouts) for coherency (another example where basing choice can be an advantage) and if we go down that path then does a unit or war engine have to be wholly within range of the target, or for a matter of fact does a target have to be wholly within range of the shooter

none of these things are stipulated in the rulebook and a decent case could be made for many of them ("you can only just reach the barrel of the gun, how are you expected to hit the vulnerable bits of the vehicle??")

but yeah 5min warmup is for those things :)

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 Post subject: Re: Orkeosaurus Tactics
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:40 pm 
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Yeah i know its not gona happen or else it probably would have by now, but i would love to see the 5 min warm up gone and those things just set in stone for a tournament pack. I guess theres to many to address and to many people to keep happy.

Edit: just wanted to point out im not having a dig here, i actually do thing theres alot to do to get rid of it.


Also just another thing. Crits on the dino in the uk are different. You barge so you can move out of the assaulting formation and only hit stuff on a 4+ yeah, so it wouldnt stomp as much stuff?

The assault i had was a dino suurounded by deamons and thermies and stuff and a thirster. We played it crit random roll hit everything in that 3rd of the circle. Stops crits again to hit everything in another 3rd as it dosnt move anywhere from the first.

Uks one would run through the formation and hit the one 3rd of the formation on a 4+ unless it was lucky enough to scatter back?


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