Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Epic UK List Update

 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:31 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
But it still hampers the flexibility of the list compared with the original, even when launched from space, since the available options are more restricted than they were contrary to your claims!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:54 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 7:27 pm
Posts: 5588
Location: Bristol
These changes all seem sensible and welcome :)

I'm glad the tentative idea from a while back of moving both Thunderhawks and Landing Craft to 1/3 got scraped. Just moving the Thunderhawk solves the problem list while minimally effecting other builds.

I would to see a tweak to the orks too, 25 points battleships maybe.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:00 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:35 am
Posts: 3338
Location: Norrköping, Sweden.
won't battleships be very situational? It's not often you see a piece of a sea or a lake as terrain on an epic board... :-P

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:35 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:35 am
Posts: 4311
Ginger wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
FWIW this is still the best option and retains much more flexibility than a max 6 aircraft at 3k, the only popular build it inpacts is the 2x warhound, 2x thunderhawk and tbolts one

(Marines should rarely have titans anyway)
On the contrary, placing the constraint changed absolutely nothing in the list except restricting the number of a/c available - which was clearly explained at length. The constraint would have retained exactly the same list flexibility as before.

This new approach of placing THawks in the space 1/3 also hampers lists with spaceships as well, so pretty much removes the notion of being able to build a list that can deploy in a different manner depending on the opossition being faced, while forcing people who want to try these strategies to use the less cost effective Landing Craft - if they have them, while virtually removing any idea of trying to find a competitive Reaver / Warlord build with some form of air assault capability.

It also tends to force a far greater reliance on a ‘fixed’ build created with a single strategy in mind, the antithesis of the Marine theme.

As for “marines should rarely have titans” - why???
If this is what people actually feel, why didn’t this option get nerfed or removed altogether??
As you said yourself, they form one of the ‘crutches’ the marine builds seem to need.

So I repeat, why nerf all the Marine lists in this way?
The 1 a/c per 500 points constraint is much simpler, and retains the balance of The Core list , no?

Spaceships aren't in the SM air/titan 1/3 so this has no effect on them.
No other list (bar orks) can run a big titan+an air assault so I don't see that being something that must be preserved.

The only builds that have been stopped are Dans thunderhawk list (not sure why you think it not a competitive list :eh ) and the 2 thawk, 2 warhound, 2 tbolt list. I don't see it as a bad thing that SM have to make difficult choices between options (warhounds or tbolts if they want the 2 thawks) and looking at different SM options for AA and AT in this case.

Whats been done is the most simple option that only effects a few builds. Thawks being in the 1/3 has been talked about for many years and I think is far preferable than permitting the spamming list that was allowed before.

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:36 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:25 pm
Posts: 332
..... I did this :)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:08 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:01 pm
Posts: 1501
kyussinchains wrote:

Dan's thunderhawk list won the euros and the GT, while far from unbeatable, it is basically zero fun to face, and some players basically have zero chance against it, it is about as far from a 'less competetive' list as it is possible to get...


I think it lost 1 out of 16 tournament games last year - that’s a pretty low loss rate. Also, as you correctly say Kyuss, its a massive negative play experience.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:23 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
kyussinchains wrote:
Dan's thunderhawk list won the euros and the GT, while far from unbeatable, it is basically zero fun to face, and some players basically have zero chance against it, it is about as far from a 'less competetive' list as it is possible to get...


kyussinchains wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
My 3x Landing Craft list got banned. :(


No it didn't

ONLY thunderhawks are added to the 1/3 air allowance, you can still take 5 thunderhawks and 5 landing craft if you want


So, a variation of Dan’s list can still be played even at 3K with 10 a/c and four ground formations, at 4K (Britcon) this rises to 13 a/c with ground formations.

The THawks are exchanged for 4-5 Landing Craft which being fearless are arguably tougher, apart from giving better FF assaults, but there are still 5-6 TBolts buzzing around.

Agreed the lists may be less competitive, but they will still be zero fun to face, and still give some people no chance of winning.

So will someone please tell me, just what has this actually “fixed”???
:gah


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:16 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 1974
Location: South Yorkshire
Quote:
So will someone please tell me, just what has this actually “fixed”???
:gah


Mainly it's fixed the threat of some players giving up on playing and coming to Epic events ever again if their experience was to be ruined by lists like the thunderdick one, or by an influx of players with a 40K tournament style of attitude of fcuk everyone else's enjoyment of an expensive day out I want to win.

hope that's cleared it you for you Gavin.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:46 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:01 pm
Posts: 1501
Also the list doesn't work with landing craft instead of tbolts as it can't snipe out all the ground flak.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:02 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:35 am
Posts: 4311
Ginger wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
Dan's thunderhawk list won the euros and the GT, while far from unbeatable, it is basically zero fun to face, and some players basically have zero chance against it, it is about as far from a 'less competetive' list as it is possible to get...


kyussinchains wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
My 3x Landing Craft list got banned. :(


No it didn't

ONLY thunderhawks are added to the 1/3 air allowance, you can still take 5 thunderhawks and 5 landing craft if you want


So, a variation of Dan’s list can still be played even at 3K with 10 a/c and four ground formations, at 4K (Britcon) this rises to 13 a/c with ground formations.

The THawks are exchanged for 4-5 Landing Craft which being fearless are arguably tougher, apart from giving better FF assaults, but there are still 5-6 TBolts buzzing around.

Agreed the lists may be less competitive, but they will still be zero fun to face, and still give some people no chance of winning.

So will someone please tell me, just what has this actually “fixed”???
:gah

The problem solved was thawk and tbolt spam list which used a combination of activations and long range battlecannons to produce a game where most lists hsve zero chsnce of winning and as importantly no way at all to even affect it. Games which aren't fun as you have no chance to combat them dont encourage people to come.
This has been repeatedly explained. :{[]

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:41 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:32 pm
Posts: 582
Looking at all this hassle would it not have been easier to just ban Dan? He's the real problem.....

_________________
Big Gunz don't fly!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:01 pm
Posts: 1501
Monkeyboy wrote:
Looking at all this hassle would it not have been easier to just ban Dan? He's the real problem.....


Get’s my vote :-)

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:28 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
Please don’t take this the wrong way, cos I also think the thunderdick list was OTT, having played something similar in the past. I believe we really need to keep the ‘air game’ under tight control, and that includes Landing Craft as much as THawks. Otherwise you will get some smarty pants turning up with a similar variant like :-
Quote:
1400 for 4x Landing Craft
600 for 4x TBolts
400 for 2x THawks
600 for 4x scouts + transport
(Or 5x TBolts, 1x THawk, and swap out 2x Assault marines for scouts)
I agree it is less competitive in a number of ways, multiple BTS for one, but that is beside the point. It is still ‘valid’ and equally obnoxious - and the 4K variant is both stronger and has fewer weaknesses.

Now The top players may be able to beat these ‘second rate’ variants, but they would still be no fun for other people to face and would be just as damaging to the tournament scene.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:08 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 8:54 pm
Posts: 2279
Location: Cornwall
StevekCole wrote:
Monkeyboy wrote:
Looking at all this hassle would it not have been easier to just ban Dan? He's the real problem.....


Get’s my vote :-)


Just say he has the choice from Lost and the damned, ulani, Yme Loc, blood angels... ;-)

In seriousness, the best solution to min-max lists is to get RichardL’s scenario play-tested and adopted imho.


Sent using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:36 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:16 am
Posts: 1064
Location: London
That's my current thinking, as far as i'm concerned the issue is not so much list abuse as exploiting a critical weakness in the grand scenario in the sense that you only need to have anything on board for one turn of the game.

With scenario variation, and more specifically something that requires board presence for each turn of the game (hence the accumulator one people have kindly been helping me to test) you can't really stack a list towards exploiting that weakness as it in turn leaves you seriously exposed to a 32-0 loss in one of 3 games.

People will always try and get the most out of lists, and this is why the scenarios are the key tools to keep things in check. It was one of the biggest issues for games like Warhammer Fantasy back in the day, with the single 'pitched battle' scenario allowing for some pretty extreme min-maxing. Players will always find a way if you limit the variables in win conditions.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net