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Epic UK List Update

 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:10 am 
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Ginger wrote:
Please don’t take this the wrong way, cos I also think the thunderdick list was OTT, having played something similar in the past. I believe we really need to keep the ‘air game’ under tight control, and that includes Landing Craft as much as THawks. Otherwise you will get some smarty pants turning up with a similar variant like :-
Quote:
1400 for 4x Landing Craft
600 for 4x TBolts
400 for 2x THawks
600 for 4x scouts + transport
(Or 5x TBolts, 1x THawk, and swap out 2x Assault marines for scouts)
I agree it is less competitive in a number of ways, multiple BTS for one, but that is beside the point. It is still ‘valid’ and equally obnoxious - and the 4K variant is both stronger and has fewer weaknesses.

Now The top players may be able to beat these ‘second rate’ variants, but they would still be no fun for other people to face and would be just as damaging to the tournament scene.

Multiple BTS, less activations, nothing to do any damage on the ground and most importantly no battlecannon spa which the opponent can do nothing about. With your list CAP the twawks and then the other flyers have to face any ground AA unlike the problem list

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:46 am 
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Ginger wrote:
Otherwise you will get some smarty pants turning up with a similar variant like :-
Quote:
1400 for 4x Landing Craft
600 for 4x TBolts
400 for 2x THawks
600 for 4x scouts + transport
(Or 5x TBolts, 1x THawk, and swap out 2x Assault marines for scouts)
I agree it is less competitive in a number of ways, multiple BTS for one, but that is beside the point. It is still ‘valid’ and equally obnoxious .


I see you point. But being the person who has - by a country mile played against the thunderDAN list more than anyone else, I disagree that this list (or any other variant now legal) is anywhere near as obnoxious. The strength of Dans list was it could comfortably take out all of any armies AA in turn one without taking a hit. Then turn two it smashes you. Turn three, whats left of your army gets smashed for 6 activations. Then theres six full thunderhawks to either delay to turn 4 or obtain a victory. Theres VERY little you can do.

The list above utterly fails to do this. With a couple of AA squads bunched up this list will take a pounding in the air - as it only has two battle-cannons rather than six. It might well strip ground AA in turn one but with no SC its not coming in as hot turn 2. More so with Landing craft having fewer AP ground shots. With more opponent on the board turn 3 and one less activation than thunderDAN things get tough. An army sitting on any objective it likes on overwatch, needing to kill any one of four landing crafts for BTS is an army with a good chance at victory.

The rub is, if your taking a list like thunderDAN, you want to win the tourney, so you need to be sure it gives you a solid edge. The above list doesn't, so why take it? Better to take Krieg, necrons, etc.

Regardless, to my mind new scenarios are a cracking idea, and I will definitely be thinking of it for McPocalypse III.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:54 am 
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Totally agree John. If I was looking for a win at a tournament, of my 6 standard lists I'd only be worried about running one (biel tann) of them into multiple landing craft. Whether as with Dan's list I only feel I have a chance with 2 (squats and krieg)

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:23 pm 
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Personally i think it would need to drop a scout and lander for a terminator bts. To be effective though it just needs to hit three criteria:

1. Can you have the entire force off-board if desired? (and therefore dictate the number of turns actually played)
2. Can you out-activate your opponent on turn 3?
3. Can you reliably score 2 points and deny your opponents any in one turn?

This is the core of why Dan's list worked, the aircraft spamming just made it even more unpleasant. If you hit those key points you still have an effective list that's very difficult to counter, especially if it can start doing horrible air assaults on turn 2 with the landers against smaller units.

Interestingly the DE list you took last year ticks all of those as well - it doesn't have quite the crazy air power, but can still reduce the game to a single turn if it suits. Reducing the game to 1 turn is a logical move with a relatively fragile assault army, but i'd argue it's in the same ballpark of frustrating to play against, and the Necron army i was playing you with last year against that particular army would probably qualify as well!


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:36 pm 
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Agree Richard, though think playing single turn is sub optimal for both as they want to recycle assaults. Likewise the landing craft + preds, + double thawk list can play that way. Interstingly, every time I've played crons or landing craft with dark eldar my opponent, understandably, effectively tried to compress the game into 1 turn.

Dark eldar have far more hard counters than Dan's that marine list though.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:45 pm 
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Agreed Tim (unsuprisingly). I feel the reason Dans list could do points 2. and 3. was because the 6 thunderhawks, with 5 T-bolts could almost always knock out the opponents AA in turn 1, without taking a hit. Thus leaving turn 2 and half of turn 3 to reduce the activations to the point where 2. and 3. are inevitable. Its "invincibility" very much hinged on the 6x75cm battlecannons plinking gorund AA, allowing the T-bolts to finish it off unscathed. Which not only usually meant one was already down activations, but also unable to stop what comes next.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:56 pm 
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From what i see, it isn't it more of an issue of spamming Battlecannons? Without them, the list loses a lot and plays more similarly to the LC one Tiny-Tim added or the DE one.

I know that his was proposed thousands of times, that I am entering into sacred territory and will get stoned, but i still think that reducing the range like any other weapon in the game when put on air units would solve it more effectively. Yeah, i know that it will change many other builds, but only the Thunder spam list would suffer much, same as what happens when moving the Thunderhawks to the 1/3.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:58 pm 
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Fixed forward weapons are rarely reduced in range when on aircraft, as a tendency. Forward or side weapons tend to be reduced.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:57 pm 
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Richard and John pretty much got everything to note from the list and how it works, as the nature of the list works is key to ensuring that the modifications to the SM list prevent similar from being achieved, I shall detail this in very simple style.
Turn one was about AA, The battlecannons suppressed allowing the Tbolts to come in and kill the unit.
This actually doesn't work against guard. - Which is why I drew with Andy and only won with some great luck vs Horatio, but in essence, if you can stop AA from firing, then you are free to break that unit with the Tbolts,
Once the AA is gone, the board is yours and turn two is about killing the BTS and reducing activations.
This then allows for a turn three win.
One thing worth noting is the importance of having a ground based BTS (i.e terminators) without this you risk loosing. Some times the shots don't go to plan and turn three ends 1-0 to the opponent. (see previous posts on BTS needing to be on board to avoid 2-0).
So in essence the battlecannon is key. As also is the fact that most players only go for two land based AA units.
Steve-C had some terrible dice with his Thousand Sons, otherwise that would be a terrible match up for the list.
This is not to say the list is fine, its not, Steve G in post above pretty much nails it when he points out some lists have no chance against it. Space Marines and Eldar are pretty much guaranteed to lose. And if any list is guaranteed to lose, well something needs to be done.
(I will say here that I don't find much value in the comments about being obnoxious - a tad personal - or about the pleasure in playing the list for an opponent, or in the fact that I was trying to win the tournament. Some lists are terrible to play against, e.g Necrons, and you don't always get a fun game (e.g my recent whooping by Tim's elder where my list was totally flawed to his heavy amount of artillery). I always try to win, I believe this is featured in the rules under 'aim of the game.' I will also add that it hasn't impacted on the only new player that I played with the list, Andy at Glasgow, who drew with it, and is becoming a really capable player) - this said, I don't think there is any disagreement about the need to change the Space Marine list, so I would suggest we all move past discussions about its creation and its tournament prowess (and gamesmanship insinuations) and focus on what to change.
This said, there seems really three suggestions that have been put forward:
Limit the number of thunderhawks, either (1) through putting them in the air / titan 1/3 or through setting a (2)limit on their number or through (3) nerfing their stats.
(3) wont work as long as they are reinforced and have an AT gun. People would still be able to fly in, take the hit and save and hand out the BM.
(1) and (2) are both viable, and I am happy to bow to the superior knowledge of the guys who write lists.
My thoughts are (2) would work better as not to impact on Titans in other lists. Idea being a max of 1 T hawk per 1k spent.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:25 pm 
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Dan 1314 wrote:
Steve-C had some terrible dice...


It’s becoming a theme! I must have caught them from all those club nights with Gavin.

Dan 1314 wrote:
(I will say here that I don't find much value in the comments about being obnoxious - a tad personal - or about the pleasure in playing the list for an opponent, or in the fact that I was trying to win the tournament. Some lists are terrible to play against, e.g Necrons, and you don't always get a fun game


Agree, it’s not the first (eg Chris Hayes siege masters) and I’m sure it won’t be the list very effective skew list. Hence why they nerf is important. Although, of course, you are a filthy cheat who’s ruined epic for everyone (and that’s just what Rebecca says about you). :-)

Lastly, and on a slight tangent. I’ve long thought tau with their excellent embedded AA, really powerful overwatch, and high mobility are the best hard counter to the thunderfcuk list.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK List Update
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:46 pm 
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Dan, I meant no personal offence in my description of the way the list works, more than once I have congratulated you for finding a way to make it work where others have failed in the past.

While people ‘aim to win’ games they take part in, not everyone enters with high expectations of winning the tournament. As such the organisers (and to some extent we the players) have a duty to try to keep the ‘fun’ element as far as possible within the competitive aspect of a tournament. The dilemma is determining where a list oversteps the point between being competitive and OTT, on which I am glad we all agree this aspect of the marines list is.

I also agree with the succinct analysis presented, which is essentially the way that any list that exploits the ‘air game’ has to work, irrespective of the list that employs it.

- Changing the stats is theoretically possible, but not realistic
- putting them in the Titan 1/3 has other effects which I consider undesirable
- limiting the thawk numbers could work, but

- limiting the a/c numbers would work better IMO (obviously) ;)
Not least because it is cleaner and removes the temptation to try this out with some ‘improved’ variant (whatever that might be).

‘Nuff said. Will try to keep quiet since the repetition is evidently getting boring and winding people up, which is far from my intention.


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