As I see it, the problem is something along the lines of

huge activation count + massed battlecannon sniping + swarms of fighters = no fun/lost games

is that correct?

I'd be totally supportive of moving thunderhawks to the air choices section, regardless of whether the tbolts get a price hike too, that nerfs the thunderbrick list in a single stroke but doesn't also invalidate dozens of competetive-yet-fun marine lists. I just don't see why the landing craft needs to go as well (which seems to be being suggested) because that isn't part of the issue as I understand it.... including the landing craft in the 1/3 allowance seems an unncessary step and seems like it's being done out of a sense of completeness rather than any pressing balance need?

maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the suggestion at the GT (at least as I heard it) was to move all marine aircraft to the 1/3 allowance, is that actually the idea under consideration? right now it seems like chinese whispers and nobody has actually set anything in stone, maybe I'm getting worked up over nothing?

I wouldn't want to tinker with the range on the battlecannon as it messes with perfectly legitimate AA suppression tactics that nobody has complained about until recently, Marines kinda need the battlecannons to snipe at AA to ensure their air assaults are less of a risk

not that my opinion matters here, but I'd suggest move thunderhawks into air allowance to prevent spam/abuse then be done with it

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Kyuss, spot on about strengths of the list. All that plus termie air assault. My brother has played against it more than anyone and runs ferals but still doesn't enjoy playing it. I agree dropping thawk weapon ranges has huge knock ons so would be really tricky.

basically we're just thinking about ways of scaling back that list without damaging perfectly viable builds. So thawks only to the air 1/3 is def worth considering (though would still affect the 2 x warhound build).

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also without wanting to seem facetious, is it worth considering the red corsairs in the same light?

they can run the following list, which may not be much fun to face either:

Chaos Terminators - Warlord
Chaos Terminators - Daemon Prince
Chaos Terminators
Chaos Thunderhawk
Chaos Thunderhawk
Chaos Thunderhawk
Chaos Thunderhawk
Chaos Thunderhawk
Hellblades
Hellblades
Hellblades
Hellblades
Hellblades

sure it's 13 activations versus 16, and may be less potent, but it has 3 sets of terminators, and approximately similar amounts of battlecannon spam and swarms of planes.... just worth considering now before someone else suggests it

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Another solution would be to introduce other scenarios.

This build only works (as well as the Barren list by the sound of it) by tailoring to the victory conditions (which is far enough).

Richard L’s proposed scenario would leave the thunder spam list crippled, as did the very similar scenario played at Exeter last year (Dan decided to bring TSons).

The issue is writing a take and hold scenario which Krieg and Ferrels don’t dominate, though perhaps a scenario requiring plenty of movement for a 3rd game would keep things even across all army lists?


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Spot on Kyuss.

Just like the original Siegemasters list, the game is reduced to one side weathering practically unstoppable attacks until a last gasp series of objective grabs by the remnants of both armies.

Not fun for either side. And while not necessarily a guaranteed win for the marines, much more likely against most opponents.

Good thought about other lists, though this particular abuse really only applies to lists with THawks and fliers that are outside the 1/3 aerospace section; basically all marine lists.

I do think new scenarios are the best way forward rather than just constantly trying to nerf various lists, and would spice things up as well

I'm going to try and get a few trial games in with Krieg, but tbh i don't think they'll be as good at it as you'd think given they only have 3 really solid formations, and in the proposed scenario there's no one unit taking multiple objectives! (which is precisely why i put that particular rule in - well that and stupid scouts capturing the world anyway). Ferals i don't have, so if someone would be a gent and try them out under that scenario that would be most appreciated I'd expect them to have some issues with speed though stopping them just dominating, especially with spread objectives.

On an additional few points on this, it would be great to see other ideas on alternate scenarios - i'd personally quite like there to be 3-4 of them, with a random one selected each 3rd game (so 1 alternate in a 3 game tournament, 2 in a 5-6 game tournament) so that all comers lists are encouraged.

On the issue of game balance in the sense that the lists have technically all being balanced for the 'grand scenario', i'd put forward 2 thoughts:
1. Many lists are already far from equal. There's a reason no-one in the top 5 this year ran stuff like Skitarii and Yme Loc...
2. The Grand Scenario itself is both creaking at the seams a bit at the moment, and also runs the risk of things getting stale. I think a bit of a shakeup here could help on both counts.

Hmm, I don't disagree Richard, but it also has to be practical for the different forms of list. For example it must not unduly penalise a ground-pounding list in favour of a skimmer list or air-assault list. Equally, the THawk spam list should be just as playable (assuming it was valid of course) as a Krieg / Siege list.

The great joy of the tournament scenario, tired though it may be, is its great flexibility and its balance (even though it allows the players to adopt unbalanced objectives).

One vague possibility might just be to associate additional victory and defeat conditions with each list, so a given list may also gain its opponent's 'defeat' condition or its own 'win' condition in addition to the standard tournament conditions.

All we need to do is to draw up a series of 'conditions' for the lists - and they do not have to be unique, indeed I suspect that relatively few will be needed.

Kinda the point though is to encourage list diversity and discourage min-maxing and unit spam, although technically an air assault heavy list could do ok in an alternative scenario, certainly in the particular one i'd proposed - but it wouldn't be able to just fly around and keep everything off board till turn 3, it would need to be fully engaged in every turn of the game, which would at the very least be more fun to play against.

Perhaps many people (including me) are sometimes forgetting to ask ourselves 'is this going to break my opponents? and if so, should i perhaps not bring this?' during list design, i guess the question is really do we put in hard restrictions, leave it to TO discretion, have a gentlemans agreement to lay off the extreme builds (or post up crazy stuff before submission and make sure everyone's ok with it), or try and put in alternative scenarios to discourage them by the fact of them not being as effective in every game.

I'm all for any scenario that doesn't involve being punched without anything to fight for 3 turns.

Unfortunately the Thawk list is one of those lists that if you try and have the tools to deal with it then you have to go so AA heavy that you'll struggle against someone who fights conventionally.

What would happen if all aircraft could not contest objectives?

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Then objectives couldn't be contested by any aircraft

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Not actually a great difference. Dan's list from memory sports Termies, 2x Assaults and 2x scouts precisely so that they can grab objectives on turn three rather than having to land Tbricks a turn earlier. And he still had 11 aircraft buzzing around. . . .

Do you understand how the list operates? Thawks not being able to contest changes it massively

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Most air transports are optimal choices Thunderhawks/Vampire Raiders (mainly because of the Aspects in them)/Ork Landas. Therefore if they could not contest they would still be taken, but would not be spammed maybe? I don't think contesting air transports adds to the game much anyway. Just wondering if sometimes the simplest answers can be the best?

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