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Epic UK list amendments

 Post subject: Re: Epic UK list amendments
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:31 pm 
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A left-field boost for Orks would be to allow mobs to Waaaagh-charge (basically this allows them to infiltrate).

And if in playtesting that makes Landas too good, then make them 225 points or alternatively 2 wounds.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK list amendments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:20 am 
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StevekCole wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
If Commissariat Gorgons are a problem, this change wouldn't prevent Grenadier Gorgons.

How about just setting it so that Commssars aren't allowed on Gorgons?


Actually quite the opposite. The Grenadier co can turn the gorgon into a commissar because there isn't a command stand. Personally, I don't mind that as it boosts one of the weaker units in the army. We'll review though!

Quite the opposite of what sorry?

Are you saying the concern was not that ability to have Commisariat Gorgons in principle, but more that the Infantry Companies are too powerful, so denying them Commissariat Gorgons is intended as a specific nerf to that formation's power?

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK list amendments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:06 pm 
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Basically yes, the infantry cos with Commissar Gorgons are a bit too strong and this is meant to dial them back a bit. There are other proposals being playtested for Krieg over the next couple of months.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK list amendments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:41 pm 
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Monkeyboy wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
If massed hordes of skorchas were winning every tournament going then I'd say yeah, give em a nerf, but right now they are just a good choice in a suboptimal list.... Give other areas a boost first
..
Agreed that the list needs a boost - but it also needs internal balance.


That just makes my head hurt..... Making suboptimal choices viable does not neccessitate making optimal choices suboptimal.....

Whenever anyone has complained about UK ork lists its either been ferals or aircraft spam... Indeed Jon M's all-conquering speed freeks list was mostly buggies with a few skorchas mixed in.... Skorchas are a decent choice, they dont need to be weakened to make room for cheaper battlewagons or anything else...

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK list amendments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:20 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
Monkeyboy wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
If massed hordes of skorchas were winning every tournament going then I'd say yeah, give em a nerf, but right now they are just a good choice in a suboptimal list.... Give other areas a boost first
..
Agreed that the list needs a boost - but it also needs internal balance.


That just makes my head hurt..... Making suboptimal choices viable does not neccessitate making optimal choices suboptimal.....

Whenever anyone has complained about UK ork lists its either been ferals or aircraft spam... Indeed Jon M's all-conquering speed freeks list was mostly buggies with a few skorchas mixed in.... Skorchas are a decent choice, they dont need to be weakened to make room for cheaper battlewagons or anything else...
Replace the date of 2017 with 2016 and Skorcha with Thunderhawk, and yes, you could have made a similar argument last year. Does abuse for a year have to occur before change?

I do, however, admit that Skorchas are not as broken as the Thunderhawks issue.

Buggies currently work best as a defensive unit (when I use them it is in my BTS to help defend against both CC or FF assaults), but other than that and the odd Warbike or maybe Buggy for plinking it is Skorchas all the way. 10 models in Kults for 225 points with Skorchas on a 6+ save would be interesting.

If there is an issue making the Skorchas 6+ save it is that I'm not that keen on the idea that they would be flaming from the backs of units, which is where players would keep them to protect them.

Another alternative fix is to keep Skorchas as they are for +25 points, but only as an additional unit and therefore forcing bikes and buggies to be taken first.

Actually, I like that - 10 bikes and buggies etc for 225 points, with Skorchas only available as a +25 points optional extra.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK list amendments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:10 pm 
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You guys thought anything of fixing the Ulani list? Maybe exchanging a normal tank for a command tank in the smaller core formations? That would help alot...

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK list amendments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:39 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK list amendments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:39 pm 
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Monkeyboy wrote:
Replace the date of 2017 with 2016 and Skorcha with Thunderhawk, and yes, you could have made a similar argument last year. Does abuse for a year have to occur before change?


Ghaz list with a piffling 12 skorchas was the only list that won a tournament (also played by Tim, one of the consistently best players on the scene) and Reedar placed 2nd in the GT with speed freeks.... Hardly the year that the looming spectre of the skorcha dominated everyone's thoughts....

Quote:
I do, however, admit that Skorchas are not as broken as the Thunderhawks issue.


Oh good....

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK list amendments
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:15 pm 
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I suspect I'm in for another year of Skorchas dominating my lists.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK list amendments
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:17 am 
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I just spotted a list error while we're here - Knights Palladin in the Skitarii list are missing forward arc from their shock lance (they and other knights have this arc on them in the knights list).


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK list amendments
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:36 am 
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P.S. all I'm asking is that suggested Ork changes are playtested by better players than me (i.e. pretty much every experienced player!).

Please, please just for a laugh give some of my ideas a try.

The reason for Orks having a Waaaagh charge is that outside of the no-brainer Landa option it is tricky to play Orky and get into CC range.

Please note that in similar fashion Khorne CC units could be given a Beserker charge version of infiltrate rules for similar reasons.

It just makes CC units especially on the ground just that little bit more viable compared to FF ones. The rules would work identically to the current infiltrate rules, it is just the theme/background to their application that would be different.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK list amendments
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:51 am 
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If the Waagh/Berzerker charge was tested (and I'm all for it by the way) the fact that its not infiltrate could mean that we could make them not ignore ZoC in the target unit (a-la infiltrate). It does irk me at times that Ork Warbands outside of Landas at only really any good for holding ground. And even then they're still vulnerable to clipping assaults as they have no real FF defence.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK list amendments
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:00 am 
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StevekCole wrote:
There's some other stuff being looked at (eg codex marines titan/air 1/3), these were just the immediate changes we wanted to make


Really? I'd be very sad if this was really necessary, the blank canvas when building marine lists is what makes them so fun, flexible, and easy to start collecting


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK list amendments
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:34 am 
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RugII wrote:
StevekCole wrote:
There's some other stuff being looked at (eg codex marines titan/air 1/3), these were just the immediate changes we wanted to make


Really? I'd be very sad if this was really necessary, the blank canvas when building marine lists is what makes them so fun, flexible, and easy to start collecting


This list says yes:
Terminators w.Chaplain
Thunderhawk
Thunderhawk
Thunderhawk
Thunderhawk
Thunderhawk
Thunderhawk
Scouts
Scouts
Assaults
Assaults
Thunderbolts
Thunderbolts
Thunderbolts
Thunderbolts
Thunderbolts

Tbh i think a mixed set of scenarios in tournaments might stop this kind of thing just as well as putting controls on the list mind you.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic UK list amendments
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:45 am 
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What about a 3 thunderbrick maximum? That might shoot down the air-list without affecting marines in any other meaningful way? I mean if you take more than 3 thunderhawks, you are basically running an air list.


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