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EXETERminatus Tournament, May 20th in Exeter, Devon

 Post subject: Re: EXETERminatus Tournament, May 20th in Exeter, Devon
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 5:39 pm 
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So, this time I brought along an atypical Dark Eldar list, using some of the units that are generally not taken: Ravagers, Haemonculi Coven and Talos.

Can I solicit people's feedback about them? Either expeirence facing them at this event, their own games or just theoryhammering it out?


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 Post subject: Re: EXETERminatus Tournament, May 20th in Exeter, Devon
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 8:55 pm 
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Well, i did feel a bit sorry for the Talos unit after it failed to activate on that quite important retain, but overall the haemunculi coven especially was something of a disappointment on the whole, especially with the grotesques addons being pretty much worthless what with it not being transportable. As a unit the haemunculi seemed to hit like a wet fish, and collapse like a bad soufle.

The Talos unit again suffered transportation issues, especially after the portable webway went up in smoke and they were forced to come out on your table half. Reasonably tough (for DE at least) they never really had a chance to get into base contact where they might have done some good.

To be honest though, i can see why both units get ignored in favour of witches and the warrior units (who are at least activating on a 1+) given they both have much better mobility options and hit harder.

Fearless for DE seems to be a bit of a conundrum to a degree - is there much point being fearless if the unit's not that mobile, can't soak damage in the firstplace particularly well, and doesn't pose that much of a threat?

It does feel at the moment that as a list, there are some clear good units and quite a few units that you really wouldn't bother with unless you wanted them in for either thematic reasons or wanted to throw them on the table for a bit of fun.


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 Post subject: Re: EXETERminatus Tournament, May 20th in Exeter, Devon
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:53 pm 
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StevekCole wrote:
Yeah, I clocked that on the way home. Apologies to Richard for getting that one wrong - I think I mixed it up with the taking suppression on small arms & the ap shooting can bm avs rule. Long day + beer +new army + lack of sleep. Thankfully I don't think it made any real diffence as I only did it once against Richard and my next activation hit the same unit with a volcano cannon so they'd still have been bmd.


Yep, sorry, i think i made the same mistake - though when you think about it this is a typical EA lack of consistency! Did anyone say v2.0!? :-)


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 Post subject: Re: EXETERminatus Tournament, May 20th in Exeter, Devon
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:55 pm 
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RichardL wrote:
It does feel at the moment that as a list, there are some clear good units and quite a few units that you really wouldn't bother with unless you wanted them in for either thematic reasons or wanted to throw them on the table for a bit of fun.


Is there an epic list this statement doesn't apply to!? ;-)



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 Post subject: Re: EXETERminatus Tournament, May 20th in Exeter, Devon
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:17 pm 
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Scutarii wrote:
So, this time I brought along an atypical Dark Eldar list, using some of the units that are generally not taken: Ravagers, Haemonculi Coven and Talos.

Can I solicit people's feedback about them? Either expeirence facing them at this event, their own games or just theoryhammering it out?


Only have theory hammer but yours was one of the lists I was most concerned by. Mainly because of the potential ravager crossfires wrecking all my war engines. Them plus void ravens and scourges meant you could have potentially danced around me shredding my slower clumsier units. My main worry was that you would gamble and get a sustained ravager crossfire at the start of turn 2 or 3 on a mounted up gorgon co. However, I think you probably didn't have quite enough activations to pull that off (I could have held back the gorgons until I knew where things were going).

I wasn't that fussed about the talos or grotesques as I thought you lacked deployment options for them (ie only one portable gate and one slavebringer) which meant they would either struggle a bit with deployment or your BTS would either start on board or come from your board gate (making it a bit less scary and more predictable) also they would at least have to come into assault range to do anything and the haemonculi at least were really likely to bounce off most of my units. My smallish number of games with DE have made me really focus on maximising the impact of the incubi as nothing else in the army hits as hard with such a long threat range.

Krieg plan would've been 2-3 superheavies and probably BTS (at least until ravagers/scourges were down) on overwatch/blitz defense duties while the rest terrain hopped its way forward under the overwatch umbrella trying to get to grips with you. I'd take pretty much any opportunity that presented itself to destroy any of your units. In or out of gorgons would depend very much on how the terrain looked. If I could knock out the void ravens I'd definitely be getting out - the concern would've been starting out and then getting barraged. T-bolts would have loved to have a go at your Ravagers but one unit would definitely have been on CAP for the void ravens. Obviously, ideal scenario would have been to drag you into a big grinding assault.

If you fancied a match up with those armies sometime we could try to get a weekend table down at Dark Sphere?

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 Post subject: Re: EXETERminatus Tournament, May 20th in Exeter, Devon
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:31 am 
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I'm curious why Steve's photos in his earlier post don't show up on the forum but when you copy his links into the browser they work. Anyone have any idea?

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 Post subject: Re: EXETERminatus Tournament, May 20th in Exeter, Devon
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:54 am 
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Blip wrote:
RichardL wrote:
It does feel at the moment that as a list, there are some clear good units and quite a few units that you really wouldn't bother with unless you wanted them in for either thematic reasons or wanted to throw them on the table for a bit of fun.


Is there an epic list this statement doesn't apply to!? ;-)



Pretty much everything in Marines is viable, same with Eldar and guard (with the exception in that case of the artillery company perhaps) to name but a few! For the Tau list i've used pretty much everything in there now too, and tbh it's all had a niche.

That's pretty much to me the issue with the DE list, there are multiple units competing for the same niche (generally CC centric assault unit) for which some units are just better, especially when you consider delivery options. The slavebringer is the go-to CC delivery tool as one might expect, and for that why would you risk a haemunculi coven for instance, that might be fearless, but if it loses CC the slavebringer dies, when you could have wyches with their first strike - making losing CC that much less likely?


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 Post subject: Re: EXETERminatus Tournament, May 20th in Exeter, Devon
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:09 pm 
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ffoley wrote:
I'm curious why Steve's photos in his earlier post don't show up on the forum but when you copy his links into the browser they work. Anyone have any idea?

It's because they're larger than the 1024px size limit that the forum software will display for inline images. :(

On that subject, table pairings and results!

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Apologies again for being slow getting these up, Sunday was spent recovering from the tournament and yesterday was mostly spent in bed with a migraine. :{[]

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 Post subject: Re: EXETERminatus Tournament, May 20th in Exeter, Devon
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:31 pm 
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And image-dump time. Larger versions of the images can be found at http://wargamingtrader.com/gallery/exeterminatus-2017

A considerable amount of time was spent touching up older paint-chipped club terrain, and also a considerable number of clothes-pegs...

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Table 4: Agriworld

Terrain-wise this was pretty straightforward, with Hills played as-is with no impassible slopes. The river (water part) was Dangerous Terrain and Cover for INF and AV (rather than Impassible for AV) and open ground for WE. The river banks could be used to get hull-down but this didn't come up in my game against Nat.

Many thanks to Richard L for bringing in his mat, it looked much better than our elderly green boards!

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Table 6: DZC City

Terrain-wise this was buildings, roads, a couple of patches of wooded parkland as Woods, and a few areas of roadside shrubbery that were 6+ Cover for INF but had no other effect.

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Table 5: Industrial Zone

The big grey Titan Hangers were Impassible.

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Table 3: Polar Regions

A big road up the middle neatly hid the join between the 4x4' and 2x4' mats. The hills on this were treated as 6+ Cover for INF and as-is for everything else.

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Table 2: Desert

Blip's very nice desert board. The hills were as-is, with the cliffs and rocky outcrops as Impassible.

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Table 1: Cityscape

As with Table 4, the River was treated as Dangerous for AV rather than Impassible, but we made sure that both rivers had plentiful bridges anyway. The two large grey blocks were buildings and the rest ruins.

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My Death Guard

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Dan's Thousand Sons

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Steve's 'DKoK' who were suspiciously short and bad-tempered.

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Horatio's Guard

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Michael's Marines

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David's DE

Unfortunately as a playing TO I didn't manage to tell everyone to lay out their army before they headed off for lunch!

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Richard's Black Legion

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Paul's White Scars

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Duncan's Skitarii which managed to break a four-way tie to get Best Painted!

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 Post subject: Re: EXETERminatus Tournament, May 20th in Exeter, Devon
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:32 pm 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
ffoley wrote:
I'm curious why Steve's photos in his earlier post don't show up on the forum but when you copy his links into the browser they work. Anyone have any idea?

It's because they're larger than the 1024px size limit that the forum software will display for inline images. :(


Ah ha - I'll revise them tonight. Cheers IJW - and for the excellent tournament organising.

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 Post subject: Re: EXETERminatus Tournament, May 20th in Exeter, Devon
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:49 pm 
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RichardL wrote:
Blip wrote:
RichardL wrote:
It does feel at the moment that as a list, there are some clear good units and quite a few units that you really wouldn't bother with unless you wanted them in for either thematic reasons or wanted to throw them on the table for a bit of fun.


Is there an epic list this statement doesn't apply to!? ;-)



Pretty much everything in Marines is viable, same with Eldar and guard (with the exception in that case of the artillery company perhaps) to name but a few! For the Tau list i've used pretty much everything in there now too, and tbh it's all had a niche.


I'm only being flippant.

Sounds fair enough, i don't know the DE list at all so can't comment. From what you are saying its a significant amount worse in DE.

Though i'd still like to get my dreadnoughts, vindicators, land raiders, baneblades, ratlings, warlord, banshees, warwalkers, etc out of the box occasionally! :-)



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 Post subject: Re: EXETERminatus Tournament, May 20th in Exeter, Devon
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 1:16 pm 
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GAME ONE: Horatio's Steel Legion

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After the overload of the day, I can't remember many specific details of this game, apart from a particularly tasty retain by a Chimera formation and Warhound that wiped out one of my Plaguehound Scout Titans in a very decisive manner.

As tends to be the case when our forces meet, this went to a draw, with me getting 975pt of kills and him getting 1140.


GAME TWO: Dan's Thousand Sons

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The in-universe grudge match of the tournament! With two incredibly resilient forces on the table this one was going to be a hard slog one way or the other.

As Dan mentioned, the Zombies came down on my left flank and had a bunch of activations thrown at them to clear the way, including a formation that summoned up nine Flamers. Unable to resist, I retaliated by drowning the formation in Disrupt barrages and finished them off by sacrificing the leftmost Plaguehound to break the formation and auto-kill the vast bulk of Dan's Daemon Pool before they could safely return to the warp at the end of the turn. Unfortunately, although I did a good job of breaking formations, I did a much less good job of playing to the objectives while Dan concentrated on the objectives wonderfully.

Probably the turning point of the game was when I moved my Retinue and Daemon Prince up the middle of the table but forgot to move anyone within 15cm of the enemy objective, allowing Dan to send his big formation all the way round to my near-side objective as the memory effect of the objectives would still get him points for his one!

Going into turn 3 with the points being 17:5 to Dan the best I could possibly get was a draw and that was going to be near-impossible, but some valiant efforts got the eventual score 'down' to 20:14 to Dan.


GAME THREE: Mark's Biel-Tan

Not that i was terrified of the Warlock titan, oh no, definitely not...

With no aircraft on either side, we had a lot less to worry about than in previous games, which freed up a bit of head-space.

I deployed with one garrisoning Contagion formation on each side and the Daemon Prince Retinue guarding the left flank Contagions. My blitz was on the right, protected by a Plaguereaper super-heavy.

A mighty five! Plague Zombies arrived in front of the Warlock Titan and proceeded to get two Blast Markers simply for arriving, while Mark's Swooping Hawks landed behind a hill on my right flank. Critically, Mark won the Strategy Roll, prepped the Contagions with some Falcons and then did a clipping assault with the Hawks before retreating into the big built-up area.

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On the left flank I was pretty much unopposed apart from Rangers and a very cowardly set of Vypers who spent the entire game in the far corner in Overwatch, just out of range of my garrisoned Contagions.

On the right flank the Defilers moved up and shot some of the Hawks in the city, followed by the Plaguehound loping up the road and pouring a Disrupt template and several other Disrupt shots into the back of the Hawks. With most of the hits having to hit the only unit within 10cm of the city edge. Which happened to be the Autarch. Whoops.

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It was at this point, with the Warlock and a mounted Guardian formation having ploughed through the Defilers and Plaguereaper, that I gave up any hope of getting my Blitz objective back.

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Other notable moments included:

A Guardian formation coming out of the Webway Portal to attack my mounted Retinue and getting wiped out to a man, with the exception of the Farseer who later got caught by a barrage at some Rangers.

One of my Plaguehounds getting all the way up to the Eldar blitz objective, and having a critical hit make him stagger back out of range of the objective. In turn three. :{[]

Having got bored of waiting for the Vypers to do something, one of the other Plaguehounds hunted them down and got enough Disrupt hits to break them even if nobody had died.

The early-broken Zombies rallied with a Supreme Commander re-roll and ended the game with four out of the original five still alive, and unbroken with no BMs thanks to a Marshall action.

Although Mark didn't run out of Blast Markers (as Steve famously did the first time he faced me), he did at one point have seven broken formations on the table.

With the critical on the Plaguehound having prevented me getting the Eldar blitz and not having enough time for a fourth turn (probably good thing for the Eldar!), we tallied up the kills to find out what type of draw it was. 1100 to 1150. Oh my, talk about close.


Thanks to my opponents for some nail-bitingly tense games, and to everyone who came to the event!

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 Post subject: Re: EXETERminatus Tournament, May 20th in Exeter, Devon
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:22 pm 
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RichardL wrote:
Blip wrote:
RichardL wrote:
It does feel at the moment that as a list, there are some clear good units and quite a few units that you really wouldn't bother with unless you wanted them in for either thematic reasons or wanted to throw them on the table for a bit of fun.


Is there an epic list this statement doesn't apply to!? ;-)



Pretty much everything in Marines is viable, same with Eldar and guard (with the exception in that case of the artillery company perhaps) to name but a few! For the Tau list i've used pretty much everything in there now too, and tbh it's all had a niche.

That's pretty much to me the issue with the DE list, there are multiple units competing for the same niche (generally CC centric assault unit) for which some units are just better, especially when you consider delivery options. The slavebringer is the go-to CC delivery tool as one might expect, and for that why would you risk a haemunculi coven for instance, that might be fearless, but if it loses CC the slavebringer dies, when you could have wyches with their first strike - making losing CC that much less likely?


It's not quite as bad actually, the Grotesques can go inside the Slavebringer. Meaning you can deliver the fearless moderately tough infantry to deeper up the table.

I still wouldn't take them over Wyches though as better CC values, first strike (on CC and FF), a 3+ macro and inspiring on the succubus and FF5+ instead of FF- means they can lend supporting fire (even after a march!)

The Infiltrate also makes a big difference as it means they remain a threat even after landing and the first strike FF also means they can defend themselves in an engagement a little bit better. To stack it even more in the Wyches favour they can take the Warp Beasts (who also can't be trasnported in raiders) but the Beasts have move 20cm and Infiltrate so the 35+5cm disembark for the wyches in raiders lines up real nice with the 20cm+infiltrate of the beasts.

The Raiders and their Lances...I understand your concern Steve but...really...they look better on paper. They have a 35cm move and 3 30cm guns, 2 with Lance, all on 5+. Being light vehicles though they are very vulnerable to any passing shots (if one gets shot and dies the 5 models get suppressed to 2 shooting) and so generally you're forced to double to hit and run into range, shoot and hide.

Those 15 shots are then on 6s so averaging 2.5 hits, usually one kill. Not particularly great for a comparatively expensive (275pts) set of vulnerable gun boats.

Playing more aggressively to get crossfires and keep a decent bit of firepower means advancing and sitting close by (hopefully with something to hide behind). 15 shots hitting on 5s for 5 hits, average 2-3 kills is much more like it. Usually though they die straight after (light vehicles within 30cm of your units are pretty easy to just beat up) and overwatch ruins them because to shoot they basically always get into overwatch range.

The crossfire+sustain is I think only going to happen to someone making a mistake and moving into that position for you.

Edit: I would say the hero unit for my guys was the invulnerable Mandrakes!


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 Post subject: Re: EXETERminatus Tournament, May 20th in Exeter, Devon
PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:51 pm 
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Blip wrote:
Though i'd still like to get my dreadnoughts, vindicators, land raiders, baneblades, ratlings, warlord, banshees, warwalkers, etc out of the box occasionally! :-)

EUK Alaitoc list - 8 rangers, 3 war walkers. 11 units with scout is quite a nice core formation for 275 points.

Granted it's in the alaitoc list - if there were a vindicator formation it'd be the star of the show

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 Post subject: Re: EXETERminatus Tournament, May 20th in Exeter, Devon
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 6:37 am 
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Hreat looking rables guys! You've really stepped up the terrain game!!

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