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Insurgency!

 Post subject: Re: Insurgency!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:56 am 
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madd0ct0r wrote:
how happy are you with your armored technicals and prices?

The unit pricing is OK, I think, for what they can do.

Thinking a bit about them, I realize that with the addition of the cheap civilian core formations, they are badly spammable (you could reach 30 3-car formations). I've tweaked the list a bit, moving the Civilians into a separate category that doesn't allow upgrades or support formations - this also removed a special rule for them, which is nice in itself.

I think a small, cheap group of vehicles is in character for this type of formation, but the list must have some way of ensuring that they can't popcorn - they do have a 45cm shooting attack, so in excessive numbers they can kill things with BMs alone.

madd0ct0r wrote:
I'm thinking of pinching them for another fanlist.


Pinch away! If it's a variation on the theme of rebellion, I'll be happy to include it in the document, too - it's intended to be extensible to other flavours of uprisings (my own long-term plans include one with foreign interventionists helping the rebels).


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 Post subject: Re: Insurgency!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:43 am 
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no, it's a latd cultist guard fanlist, but you ought to talk to EvilandChaos about his "Epic: hive" Supplement. this'd fit right n there.


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 Post subject: Re: Insurgency!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:37 pm 
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The current list states that Insurgent core formations can take "up to two different upgrades" and that the Revolutionary formation "may add up to four Specialist upgrades". The word "different" is not included for the Revolutionary formation. Is this intentional or an error? Does each Specialist upgrade have to be different or can you have multiples of the same upgrade for the Revolutionary formation only?

Also, the list states that a Revolutionary formation consists of "Twenty Armed Civillians and one Revolutionary Character". Can the Revolutionary Character be added to any unit in the formation just like the Rabble Rouser Character upgrade?


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 Post subject: Re: Insurgency!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:20 pm 
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uberChris wrote:
The current list states that Insurgent core formations can take "up to two different upgrades" and that the Revolutionary formation "may add up to four Specialist upgrades". The word "different" is not included for the Revolutionary formation. Is this intentional or an error? Does each Specialist upgrade have to be different or can you have multiples of the same upgrade for the Revolutionary formation only?

An error, fixed in next release. It is intended as four different upgrades (no getting 4 rabble rousers!)

uberChris wrote:
Also, the list states that a Revolutionary formation consists of "Twenty Armed Civillians and one Revolutionary Character". Can the Revolutionary Character be added to any unit in the formation just like the Rabble Rouser Character upgrade?


Any unit. If there are Ogryns or other tough rebels, it makes sense that they're the Revolutionary Leader's bodyguard. He or she would also likely commandeer any tanks present...


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 Post subject: Re: Insurgency!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:49 am 
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Interesting list.

My initial thoughts are that the special rules are confusing and whilst I appreciate that you would steadily get used to them, in a pick-up game against a new opponent they would become very frustrating to play against.

I would drop the reference to Ogryns and call them Dockers or something. I would also probably change the name of the Irate Farmers to Dovers as well.

In comparison to the LaTD list the cost of the Leman Russ and Hydra formations are too low.


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 Post subject: Re: Insurgency!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:32 pm 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
Interesting list.

My initial thoughts are that the special rules are confusing and whilst I appreciate that you would steadily get used to them, in a pick-up game against a new opponent they would become very frustrating to play against.

Thanks! I hope to get to play it one day :)

It is in a way the polar opposite of the Titan Legion - hordes of useless units that keeps coming and drowns you in numbers, as opposed to two or three units that just won't die. Both can be surprising and frustrating for the unprepared.

That being said, it is really intended for story-based scenarios, where the opponent knows what to expect.

Tiny-Tim wrote:
I would drop the reference to Ogryns and call them Dockers or something. I would also probably change the name of the Irate Farmers to Dovers as well.

Not that I'm opposed to the idea, but why? Aren't Ogryn well-established in the background? I thought they fit well, being one of the elements of Imperial society that are actually combat useful without being specially trained or equipped. Non-imperial insurgent armies could of course have something similar ("Space Kroxigors" or whatever), but I thought the term "Ogryn" conveyed the intent well.

What is a 'Dover'?

Tiny-Tim wrote:
In comparison to the LaTD list the cost of the Leman Russ and Hydra formations are too low.


OK, will fix. Note that there is a discount for the tanks when taken as an upgrade, because they'll be attached to an initiative 3+ formation (or to a distinctly sub-par militia unit).

It could be argued that there is so little armour in the list that those there are should get a discount; they'll attract proportionally more AT fire, after all. But lets start conservatively.


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 Post subject: Re: Insurgency!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:14 pm 
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I haven't tried to put a list together as yet, but I get the feeling that the number of stands involved in could be prohibitive in normal games. As a very basic list of just using Revolutionary & Insurgent Mobs you could have 276 stands in a 3000pt army. That's almost double my 144 Speed Freak army that takes up a whole deployment zone.

Why I'd change the name of the Ogryns is that in the fluff they are not generally associated with the general public, too scary.

The name Drover is associated with cattlemen.

Final thought - What about combining the armed Technical vehicles as one type AP/AT/AA I'm thinking of adding in an armed Land Tranporter for the LaTD cultists.


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 Post subject: Re: Insurgency!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:49 pm 
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I glanced through the list and thought it interesting. I too am a bit concerned with the activation count but there are a couple of tweaks that might make that easier to manage. Primarily I'd look at some fundamentals like your Strategy and Initiative Rolls. IMO you could make your Strategy Rating a Zero; as it stands Imperial Guard don't have that much of a leg up. I'd also consider making the Initiative Rolls 4+ and 3+ (instead of 3+ and 2+). Those big mobs, once broken, would have a difficult time coming back, and that ain't a bad thing in this type of list.

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 Post subject: Re: Insurgency!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:06 pm 
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My thoughts on the conversations above:
-Change Strategy to Zero
-Keep Initiative at 3+/2+, you want some formations (3+ being in the majority) to actually have a chance to achieve something/rally, especially when you factor in modifiers. Rallying on a 7+ (shudder).
-Not too worried about activation count. Low quality formations and once upgrades are added to make a formation somewhat effective, it gets pricey (example: Armed Civillians formation with Rabble Rouser and Leman Russ upgrades = 350 points) thus driving down activation count. Also at Strategy Zero, they will most likely never get to activate first.
-Because Hydras are an independent formation, I would change their price to the I.G. cost. I wouldn't change the Leman Russ point costs for the reasons that "Speaker to Machines" mentions above.
-I want to try playing the list without the recycle rule to start and if it is needed then I'll include it.

Those are my two cents, keep up the good work Speaker.


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 Post subject: Re: Insurgency!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:07 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
I glanced through the list and thought it interesting. I too am a bit concerned with the activation count but there are a couple of tweaks that might make that easier to manage. Primarily I'd look at some fundamentals like your Strategy and Initiative Rolls.

Quite so. That's the main limiting factor on the list (that, and the individual insurgents are terrible fighters...)

Moscovian wrote:
IMO you could make your Strategy Rating a Zero; as it stands Imperial Guard don't have that much of a leg up.

Fine by me. Any half-way organized military force should be able to get the jump on these guys.

Moscovian wrote:
I'd also consider making the Initiative Rolls 4+ and 3+ (instead of 3+ and 2+). Those big mobs, once broken, would have a difficult time coming back, and that ain't a bad thing in this type of list.


That's excessive, I think. They already rally on 5+ from broken, or 6+ with enemies within 30cm. 6+/7+ seems too harsh, even for rebels...

A broken 3+ initiative unit is, in my opinion, effectively dispersed - you can't base a net turn plan on them, it's pure luck if they return to "fighting order".


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 Post subject: Re: Insurgency!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:13 pm 
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Fair enough on the Initiative. I like the feel of the list you've come up with. I'm tempted to get a bazillion minis holding banners saying "We are the 99.9999999%". :)

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 Post subject: Re: Insurgency!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:14 pm 
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D'oh, Ninja'ed!

uberChris wrote:
My thoughts on the conversations above:
-Change Strategy to Zero
-Keep Initiative at 3+/2+, you want some formations (3+ being in the majority) to actually have a chance to achieve something/rally, especially when you factor in modifiers. Rallying on a 7+ (shudder).
-Not too worried about activation count. Low quality formations and once upgrades are added to make a formation somewhat effective, it gets pricey (example: Armed Civillians formation with Rabble Rouser and Leman Russ upgrades = 350 points) thus driving down activation count. Also at Strategy Zero, they will most likely never get to activate first.
-Because Hydras are an independent formation, I would change their price to the I.G. cost. I wouldn't change the Leman Russ point costs for the reasons that "Speaker to Machines" mentions above.
-I want to try playing the list without the recycle rule to start and if it is needed then I'll include it.

OK, looking forward to hearing how it goes. The reason for the recycle rule is really to simulate a few hundred extra rebels without the player having to create models for them all. I know that painting about a thousand tiny soldiers will be quite enough for me :)

uberChris wrote:

Those are my two cents, keep up the good work Speaker.


Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Insurgency!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:21 pm 
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Oh, one thought crossed my mind... You have no commanders (save for the SC, of course). That may make sense in a traditional definition, but it seems that somebody motivating a bunch of protesters to join his mob could make a big impact for an assault. The protesters by themselves don't do anything, but their numbers would be awesome for getting a +1 or +2 outnumbering bonus on an assault.

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 Post subject: Re: Insurgency!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:51 pm 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
I haven't tried to put a list together as yet, but I get the feeling that the number of stands involved in could be prohibitive in normal games. As a very basic list of just using Revolutionary & Insurgent Mobs you could have 276 stands in a 3000pt army. That's almost double my 144 Speed Freak army that takes up a whole deployment zone.

Well, half of those would start in reserve and teleport in (leaving the enemy forces in the midst of a sea of angry rebels, which is as it should be).

Of course, if you max out on mobs and deploy them all from the start, it looks a lot massed indigenes rushing the defending army positions, heedless of casualties since they outnumber their enemy ten to one... Rourkes Drift writ large, perhaps?

Tiny-Tim wrote:
Why I'd change the name of the Ogryns is that in the fluff they are not generally associated with the general public, too scary.

Hm. They're expected to be rare, I was really envisaging them as the rebellious leaders bodyguard. Of course, you can get a lot of them if you put two of them in every core formation, but then it would look like a mixed-population rebel force. I picture released slave labourers (mutants or aliens, even) joining the rebels...

Tiny-Tim wrote:
The name Drover is associated with cattlemen.

Ah, cowboys! Yes, obviously! :D

How about this:

Irate Drovers: I, 30cm, CC 6+, FF6+, Six-shooters (contact) First Strike, Insurgent, Mounted, Scout.

Tiny-Tim wrote:
Final thought - What about combining the armed Technical vehicles as one type AP/AT/AA I'm thinking of adding in an armed Land Tranporter for the LaTD cultists.


Meh. I like the flavor of the different technicals. Of course, I'm influenced by the nice GHQ Toyotas...


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 Post subject: Re: Insurgency!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:57 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
Oh, one thought crossed my mind... You have no commanders (save for the SC, of course). That may make sense in a traditional definition, but it seems that somebody motivating a bunch of protesters to join his mob could make a big impact for an assault. The protesters by themselves don't do anything, but their numbers would be awesome for getting a +1 or +2 outnumbering bonus on an assault.


Hm. The protesters are Civilian, so they may never attack or enter an enemy ZOC... It seems odd that they could count for combat resolution... I'd actually rather just forbid them from engaging.


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