Fellow short and sturdy ones, I have a question.

Once upon a time there where these imperial abhumans, or whatever they actually where. High gravity mutated humans perhaps? A different species living where the Imperium wanted mines?
Whatever they were, they were colourful and mightily loved. And lost in the warp of the Powers.

Then they re-appear, perhaps. In a side note of said Powers scribblings.

And a sage takes up that mantel and writes them back into the history. A stunning work it is. Well done and well executed.
The short and sturdy ones have survived the hive fleet. They are out there, in their bastion space crafts. Out there looking for a good deal.

That's where we are today.
We got two strains, we got the ordinary Squat and we got the Demiurg masterly presented by epilgrim. Yes, I may be a Squat and not a Demiurg, but that work is masterful indeed.

And we got a problem. A problem I know Moko and Steve has discussed in detail over the past eons. And we are still inside that discussion.
Is it perhaps time to decide which strain to concentrate on?
As I see it we need to do that. We can't hang around in this limbo there's now. We need to make one variant done and playable.
As with this Stubborn rule, not only do we need to play test it, we need to do it twice! Once for Squats, once for Demiurg. And this goes for everything else. The Leviathan, as another example, will most probably need separate costs. Maybe even separate stats. Or is that same costs but other stats...?

I think everyone knows where my heart lies. But first and foremost it lies with getting them brightly coloured dots out on the table again.
And that is done most effectively with one list.
At least I believe that, and I have indications that (powerful) others feel the same way.
Can we make a vote and start working in one direction till done?
I can easily pledge to do that, whatever is decided by this poll if it takes effect. 'Cause I want them out in the field, blasting away at grudges!
And when that is done we'll start on the other. That be Squat or Demiurg, as the other part of these two.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

The fact is that with Squats we have at least some background and units to work from. For the demiurg it's basically making it all up from scratch or copying squats and calling them demiurg (which seems to be what the current list is).

Squats for me.

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

My Demis will be attached to my Squats ... as distant cousins and allies ... Like the Vulcans & the Romulans ...    

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Squats.

Anything else and you're just making it all up yourself.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Both, just a different Name... for the same race imho.
Back in the days they were called squats, now they´r called demiurg...
It does not matter what´s the name of the list, as long as it is playable...

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www.ttc-cosmophobia.de

Unfortunately it's a fair bit more than that. They share common stats but not minute force organisation.
And that up's the complexity to get playable lists quite severely. Thus this question about how to handle it.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Squats all the way baby! & I shall dispatch Ninjas to deal with the non-believers!

Although I like the current Demiurg list better, the Squats are the natural choice if a focus is needed.

In the Squat list I dislike most of the hard formation limits (Hearthguard and Robots mostly) and I think some of the upgrade costs may need looking at. I like Hearthguard Cavalry (puts all those guild master models to use) from the Demiurg list and the only real problem I have is with the Cyclops's very limited firing options.

OKay, I am going to make a rant here, so prepare yourselves...

One year ago, I stood in front of Jervis Johnson who -regardless of his current work with Epic- is considered somebody to listen to, is often quoted, and is much respected.

He told Steve (ePilgrim) in no uncertain terms the following:
1. The Demiurg are not and most likely NEVER WILL BE official in any capacity.
2. The Demiurg are not going to be explored or touched upon other than as a mysterious race that nobody gets to really see.
3. The Demiurg were meant as a way of revamping the Squats in some way.
4. Steve's fiction that he wrote for the Demiurg was 'compelling'.
5. Steve was more than welcome to continue with his effort of expanding on his ideas, as long as he marked them UNOFFICIAL as we had with the Raiders book.  He even held the Raiders book in his hand, pointed at it, and put his finger in the bottom left corner where it said 'UNOFFICIAL'.

That is a carte blanche, free pass, I-give-you-my-blessings moment with Jervis regarding the Demiurg.  Moving on.
------
The current project of Epic: Xenos will include the Demiurg and the Squats.  This isn't up for debate or deliberation, it isn't subject to a vote, it isn't something that can be swayed.  ePilgrim, Jaldon, Lord Inquisitor, myself, and a handful of other have already started on the project.  

Without giving the whole thing away, we are writing the Demiurg into the 40K universe (and specifically into the Squat history) in a very careful way that we think will satisfy old and new fans.  Dozens of hours have already been spent researching Squat and Demiurg references alone.  

Much like the Raiders project which has been widely touted to be a success, this Xenos project will be run the same way.  If we had listened to the naysayers then, it would never have happened.  It was a success because we made it very apparent that the project was ours. If you didn't like it you could stand aside and ignore it.  If you did like it you were welcomed into the team.

The same thing goes for Xenos, the Demiurg, and the Squats.  If you like it, we would love you help.  If you don't, then move on - there is nothing to see here.

Specific to the Demiurg-Squat project, I will give you a peak behind the veil on some things that may help you understand the project better.  The way we are writing it, the Demiurg and the Squats are essentially the same race.  They represent different organizations of Squats and all this is being worked into the fiction itself.

Lastly, for the "This is made up stuff" argument...  I don't care.  If you want to nix ideas that are made up we can eliminate most of the Necron lists and Dark Eldar lists which represented the bulk of the Raiders project that so many of you supported and even worked on.  If our standard is now discluding things that are 'made up' that will mean we are no longer supporting ALL FAN SUPPLEMENTS?  Because every idea so far that I have seen has had a tremendous amount of made-up stuff in it, I say we wipe it all out!  

I'm obviously being sarcastic with my last statement.  I think instead of viewing these things as "made up", consider them artistic latitude.  If in the end you think the whole thing sucks, you are not required to read it.  But I do think you will like it.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Mosc, you could've contacted me first. It would've made things easier for all.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Squats.

If you're going to make up your own unofficial race of stunted abhuman bikers, then use another term rather than hi-jacking one from a race that's already a part of the established official background.

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Personally I'd prefer the Xenos project was renamed Warlords or similar, and only focused on the Squats/Demiurg-verus-Imperium, rather than lever in the other races you've mentioned.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Xenos is a WIP name (we had to give it something other than 'the squat project').  There are a couple other titles that we have floating around but until we decide on another one, it will just remain Xenos for convenience.

Curis, I guess you didn't get to read my post above.  If you can find an official & legitimate reference to the Demiurg that details anything about them (units used or what-have-you), please email/PM to me.  As it stands right now, there is no "hijacking" of anything because there is nothing to hijack.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

But you're still planning to include more alien races than just the Squats and Demiurg?

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

One, yes.  If you are interested in helping out, let me know and I'll PM you the details and where you might be able to assist.

The whole idea was -much like in Raiders- the title would apply to all four army lists in some thematic way.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.