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Redemptionist Crusade v1.0
zombocom
 Post subject: Redemptionist Crusade v1.0
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:45 am 
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I decided to knock together a Redemptionist Crusade Epic army list:

http://elf.planetquake.gamespy.com/Epic ... onists.htm

I had previously posted this in the guard forum, but now there's an "other" forum I figured it fitted better here.

Any comments?

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Pulsar
 Post subject: Redemptionist Crusade v1.0
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:17 am 
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looks like the List has shaped up well, i like the idea, we should do a few playtest games.

not to sure about all the Pulpiteks having leader?

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zombocom
 Post subject: Redemptionist Crusade v1.0
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:57 pm 
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Pulsar: That's my way of representing the redemptionist zeal. Pulpiteks have a pulpit on top, and a decon preaching from it, so they have a lot of leaders, and remove blast markers well.

It was a way around having a special rule basically.

I know it seems weird but I think it's quite elegant, especially since the list is deliberately initially underpowered/overpriced.

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Pulsar
 Post subject: Redemptionist Crusade v1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:41 am 
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i like the fact that you are not trying to make special rules for the list, i think we playtest it, and the we'll see how it works.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Redemptionist Crusade v1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:01 am 
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Aye, I need to finish making the pupitek for casting first, and make a lot more infantry stands...

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Redemptionist Crusade v1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:59 pm 
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Then... we fight!

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Redemptionist Crusade v1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:05 pm 
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Really interesting - probably the most original list I've seen in awhile.  I will definitely have a closer look when I have free time.  Be sure to put it on wikiwikiwar.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Redemptionist Crusade v1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:36 pm 
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Cheers, I will do.

For the record, most of the list is based on established fluff, with only the Incineratek, Flakitek and Cathedral of Purification being inventions of my own. Well, the willing penitent engines are too I guess, though they're basically just standard witch hunter ones.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Redemptionist Crusade v1.0
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:01 pm 
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I really should play a game or two with this list, even if only with proxies. Stay tuned...

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Redemptionist Crusade v1.0
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:17 pm 
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It seems that the stats are sort of organized and stout as compared to the description of them as a rag-tag congregation of assorted mobz.   In a similar vein, I'm not sure to what level the Inquisition should be present.

If you want to go with the "congregation of mobs" style, I'd say it would be good to borrow some ideas from the L&D, which has a similar scavenged and cobbled feel - LVs instead of AVs and such.  Also, while Cultists would build the altars and daemon engines in secret, I don't see Redemptionist vigilante gangs building penitent engines and cathedrals absent the Inquisition.  If they did, I don't think the Inquisition would approve.  In that case, stick with infantry hordes.

OTOH, if you want some sort of team-up led by the Inquisition, then you have a different feel - The Inquisition ruthlessly exploiting the Redemptionists' zeal to both achieve the Inquisition's goals and rid themselves of this problematic vigiliante rabble.  That could be more like the list you have with a few heavy Inquisition forces driving the expendable Redemptionist mobs into the meatgrinder.

So, I guess the advice would be to define the army style in more detail and make sure the style matches the org and unit stats.


On a side note, I didn't cross-reference it with the stats in the "Riot!" Fanatic article, but it might be a good idea to use the same stats for the basic troopers.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Redemptionist Crusade v1.0
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:56 pm 
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The difficulty with a list like this is making it anything other than a ridiculous human-horde. Obviously the list will always be largely structured around a horde concept, but I wanted to include a few other options too.

On the issue of Inquisitorial involvement, I want to include it to a small extent, hence the penitent engines and cathedral. I should probably rework the fluff somewhat to suggest some form of inquisitorial involvement in those units. The cathedral, by the way, is based on a similar war engine in the fluff of the witch hunters, a giant leviathosque transport.

I kinda like the idea of having a small inquisitorial presence in the list, perhaps as an alternative to the high priest I could have the option of an inquisitor and his retinue overseeing the campaign, with, as you say, little regard for the safety of the brethren. Perhaps if you took an inquisitor you could have an option for small inquisitorial shock troop detachments. That certainly needs a little more thought.

Perhaps a Devotee/Novice unit, with worse stats than the current brethren and the disposable rule? That's certainly how they usually play in necromunda, with a bunch of Devotees in the front lines being shot down that noone really cares about.

As regards the Riot! article, I did read it first, but the stats in it didn't really fit with how I saw the brethren working (Zealots with FF4+? Hmm) . They are reasonably close though. TBH the Riot! article hasn't had that much thought put into it, and is full of typos and straight up mistakes.

As for them being too organised, I had considered some kind of "gathering of the faithful" special rule, whereby the player would roll to randomly add units to or remove units from each formation, but it seemed a needless special rule.

Perhaps some kind of Ork style variable initiative based on what orders are given?




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Redemptionist Crusade v1.0
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:21 pm 
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I wanted to include a few other options too

I agree that's needed.  I'm weak on my Necromunda lore so I can't really offer up any suggestions for heavy vehicles or elite troops aside from including Inquisition.  The Bikers seem like a decent addition.  Perhaps a vehicle formation (even if restricted in availability) could add a touch more versatility as well?

On second thought, would something along the lines of a Chaos Altar would be okay for them?  Could that be fit into the background reasonably?  If so, something like a lightly armed DC3, 100 points or less, 1-3 in a formation or a 0-1 upgrade for a Mob might work.

Psykers are out, right?

Perhaps a Devotee/Novice unit, with worse stats than the current brethren and the disposable rule?
That's an interesting idea.  The "we don't care if they kill us" attitude is certainly appropriate and you have plenty of Fearless.  Maybe a "we don't care if you kill them" unit would fit as well.

I kinda like the idea of having a small inquisitorial presence in the list, perhaps as an alternative to the high priest I could have the option of an inquisitor and his retinue overseeing the campaign
Maybe something like the Mob/Retinue structure with up to 1/3 from Inquisition?  You could have an Inquisitor SC and retinue, the Cathedral, maybe an elite formation or two like a penitent engine mob or flagellants or something else.

As regards the Riot! article, I did read it first, but the stats in it didn't really fit with how I saw the brethren
Fair enough.  Like I said, I didn't check it.  It was just an idea.

Have you given any thought to models?  I think the Chaos Cultist models would work great for the basic troops and plastic rhinos to convert are easy to work with, plentiful and dirt cheap.  Past that, though, I'm not sure.  Some modeling suggestions would be a great addition.

Balance items:

Zealots that are Fearless and +1MWEA for ~20 points are something to keep an eye on.   If I were trying to abuse the list, I'd figure out anything I could do to get them into base contact ASAP.

Bikers seem to be basically rough riders, but most people think the +1 EA FS makes them too tough for their points.

Pulpitek is very good for a transport vehicle.  3 unit capacity, 4+ armor, decent shot, and Leader makes it pretty nasty for 50 points.  I'm not saying it's out of whack, but if I were testing the list it would be something I would try to exploit in some way.  Also, depending on where you go stylistically, LV might work better.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Redemptionist Crusade v1.0
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:24 pm 
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Psykers are out, right?


The only thing Redemptionist like to do with Psykers involves fire, lots of fire. :D

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Redemptionist Crusade v1.0
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:48 pm 
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What about having a rule that states certain units may only be taken if you have an inquisitor present.

these units could be the

penitance engines (what about allowing arco flagurants in this formation)

the catherdral

and inquisition storm troopers (aka normal storm troopers but with access to rhinos, chimeras and valkyries)

Inquisitors could be a charcater upgrade that you could add to stormies and possible one or two other formations, with the option of being a lord inquisitor, with supreme commander.

I would also drop the optoin of getting a redemptionist supreme commander, being abe to gather a large mob is one thing, organising it is quite another.

In fact I would say that mobs and certain other zealot minded formations shouldn't be allowed to use the supreme commanders reroll.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Redemptionist Crusade v1.0
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:43 am 
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(nealhunt @ Feb. 21 2008,19:21)
QUOTE

On second thought, would something along the lines of a Chaos Altar would be okay for them?  Could that be fit into the background reasonably?  If so, something like a lightly armed DC3, 100 points or less, 1-3 in a formation or a 0-1 upgrade for a Mob might work.


I've never been keen on the chaos altar idea, and the idea doesn't really mesh with redemptionists. They show their faith by fury in combat, not worship at altars.

Psykers are out, right?

More than you can possibly imagine.


Have you given any thought to models?  I think the Chaos Cultist models would work great for the basic troops and plastic rhinos to convert are easy to work with, plentiful and dirt cheap.  Past that, though, I'm not sure.  Some modeling suggestions would be a great addition.


I've knocked up a few test stands of brethren, zealots and penitent engines, and am making a pulpitek atm. chaos cultists as the basis of brethren, eldar guardians (yes, really!) at the basis for zealots and old plastic sentinals and my bits box for the penitents.

I'll stick some pics up tomorrow.


Zealots that are Fearless and +1MWEA for ~20 points are something to keep an eye on.   If I were trying to abuse the list, I'd figure out anything I could do to get them into base contact ASAP.


Yeah, zealots are an issue. They need to be good, but maybe CC5+ would be better. Bear in mind that there is almost no ranged shooting in the list, assaults will be the mainstay.

Bikers seem to be basically rough riders, but most people think the +1 EA FS makes them too tough for their points.

Yeah, bikers are rough riders in all respects and should use the latest rough rider stat. That'll be changed.


Pulpitek is very good for a transport vehicle.  3 unit capacity, 4+ armor, decent shot, and Leader makes it pretty nasty for 50 points.  I'm not saying it's out of whack, but if I were testing the list it would be something I would try to exploit in some way.  Also, depending on where you go stylistically, LV might work better.


It's a nightmare to get right. It'll certainly take a lot of playtesting to figure out how to balance it. The twin autocannon will definately stay, as that's what it has in the fluff. LV might be a pretty good idea actually, though I've a feeling it may make the formation too vulnerable.

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