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Squats or Demiurg?
Squats, the old imperial abhumans       100%  100%  [ 19 ]
Total votes : 19

Squats or Demiurg?

 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 9:40 pm 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ 28 May 2009, 15:18 )

You chose not to take up my invitation.


In the mean time you obviously have a different view on the Squats/Demiurg/etc.  When you ACTUALLY PRODUCE AN IDEA I will try to be less obtuse than you when I comment on it.

These lists have no tone, hence good meaning stuff can come across as quite abrupt.

In regards to the above comments, I would love to. I have not been dismissive, I just have no time at the moment. I produce alot of ideas for a few game systems. I am not going to look for them to prove my point, but all I would ask is for a little restraint. People are just as protective of their ideas and suggestions as yourself. If there is a discussion, let it happen. There is no need to come in and re-advertise the squat and demiurge lists - people know they exist.

Personally I have not tested or played the above lists as I am still new to epic and have alot of other (more interesting IMO) armies to play with (Tyranids being the latest quandry). When I get to the squats, be assured that there will be many questions and ideas. It's just a shame for me that I have come into this so late as not to offer assistance for a printed publication...

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 9:41 pm 
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Let's move on to a more fun topic; when are we gonna get a chaos squat list!

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 11:36 pm 
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I'm at it actually.  :vD

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 1:33 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 28 May 2009, 19:47 )

Once again targeting the legitimacy of the Demiurg work.


Well, you are just making it up yourself.

There's no background, no stories, no army list, etc.

It's not like the Dark Eldar where you were limited for the most part to interpreting how to represent them and only adding a couple of new units, you are 'just' making up your own army that happens to be Space Dwarfish.

Everything past the main rulebook and Swordwind is fan-based effort and thus "made-up".

As far as background, stories and army lists not in existence you are misinformed. Most probably I have written more "stuff" about the Demiurg than GW published while they were actively considering them. Whatever else GW may have conceived of is a matter of speculation as I don't believe anyone here has direct knowledge they could provide us with. Much of what I have written has been circulated on this forum or available as download. If you have missed it somehow I will gladly provide you a copy.  

Regarding the work itself: I purposefully limited myself to units that were existing Citadel miniatures; either original Squat minis or Imperial minis that were no longer part of the IG or SM. That was to facilitate ease of use by players that either owned the minis or wanted to track them down. As for the work that was involved in developing a unique army list with character, and a back story that ties in with the 40K universe, I think you are oversimplifying my work in an uncharitable manner.

You yourself have made several similar contributions and I would not dismiss those efforts out of hand. I do not ask that you endorse what I developed or be enthused by it, however as one fan to another I feel you could show common courtesy; even if you dislike it.

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 1:47 am 
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I appreciate this poll as a useful gauge of what is best for the development of the Squats as a useable range or models within Epic: Armageddon and I thank Erik M for “stepping upâ€Â

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 2:04 am 
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Everything past the main rulebook and Swordwind is fan-based effort and thus "made-up".
...
You yourself have made several similar contributions and I would not dismiss those efforts out of hand. I do not ask that you endorse what I developed or be enthused by it, however as one fan to another I feel you could show common courtesy; even if you dislike it.


Like it or not, there is a difference between writing a list for the Death Korps or Dark Eldar (both of which officially exist), and deciding that the Demiurg are related to the Squats. :)

I applaud and encourage your creativity and wouldn't seek to dissuade you in your project, but you are going 'off canon' into the dark territory of creating a slightly alternate universe.

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 8:25 am 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 28 May 2009, 21:41 )

Let's move on to a more fun topic; when are we gonna get a chaos squat list!

Great. So now I am going to have to look at modelling more miniatures??!!

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:34 am 
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Thanks epilgrim; and here's to co-work for the sake of them sturdy ones! :beer:

frogbear ~ Isn't that why you play with these very small dolls?  :p

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 11:25 am 
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Here is the diconnect:

Like it or not, there is a difference between writing a list for the Death Korps or Dark Eldar (both of which officially exist), and deciding that the Demiurg are related to the Squats.

I applaud and encourage your creativity and wouldn't seek to dissuade you in your project, but you are going 'off canon' into the dark territory of creating a slightly alternate universe.


What ePilgrim is saying is that the Demiurg ARE (on a genetic level anyway) Squats.  We're getting into minutia here and churning to the surface a lot of creative ideas that we're hoping to present later, but suffice to say...
There isn't enough OFFICIAL material on the Demiurg to classify them as NOT related to the Squats or as related to the Squats.  It isn't off-canon because there is no canon.  And based on Jervis' comments there will never be anything canon (at least for the foreseeable future).  His comments don't legitimize the work on the Demiurg, but they do justify the ability to work on a blank slate that GW never intends to use.

Trust me, I would never allow the work to go to print if I felt it would be contradictory to GW IP.  This is one of the fundamentals of our amateur printing guidelines that we must follow (no friendly Dark Eldars drinking beers with Space Marines, no Commissars allowed to become officers in Tyranid armies, etc.).  

If anyone can find OFFICIAL GW references to the Demiurg in any capacity, then please email or PM to me and I'll share it with the group.  If it affects the project, so be it.

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 11:48 am 
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Mosc, can we leave the Xenos project now? And concentrate on getting them sturdies out on the field. That's what this poll is about. Getting a playable list working.

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 12:10 pm 
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Just responding to the question, but sure.

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 12:38 pm 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ 29 May 2009, 11:25 )

What ePilgrim is saying is that the Demiurg ARE (on a genetic level anyway) Squats.  We're getting into minutia here and churning to the surface a lot of creative ideas that we're hoping to present later, but suffice to say...
There isn't enough OFFICIAL material on the Demiurg to classify them as NOT related to the Squats or as related to the Squats.  It isn't off-canon because there is no canon.  And based on Jervis' comments there will never be anything canon (at least for the foreseeable future).  His comments don't legitimize the work on the Demiurg, but they do justify the ability to work on a blank slate that GW never intends to use.

Trust me, I would never allow the work to go to print if I felt it would be contradictory to GW IP.  This is one of the fundamentals of our amateur printing guidelines that we must follow (no friendly Dark Eldars drinking beers with Space Marines, no Commissars allowed to become officers in Tyranid armies, etc.).  

If anyone can find OFFICIAL GW references to the Demiurg in any capacity, then please email or PM to me and I'll share it with the group.  If it affects the project, so be it.

Obviously the best source is BFG Armada.

There's very little there, but enough for me to conclude that the Demiurg are a separate, Xeno species rather than abhumans. They're referred to as "Aliens" several times, and Imperials would never refer to abhumans as aliens.

"Unfortunately, less than scrupulous planetary governors have been known to employ Demiurg forces to bolster their own positions, inviting Inquisitorial censure for their truck with aliens."

"Aside from the Tau, who appear to have the strongest known connection with the Demiurg, a number of races have on occassion been reported as having made contact with these aliens.

"“They are aliens, granted."

It also mentions how they "avoid Imperium-claimed space scrupulously unless specifically invited in."

Interestingly, there's nothing in Armada to even suggest they have a dwarf-like stature.

As you say, there's nothing definitive to say they're not related to the squats, but no evidence at all that they are. They're just as likely to be related to the vespid.




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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 1:19 pm 
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Zombo, can we leave the Demiurg debate now? And concentrate on getting them sturdies out on the field. That's what this poll is about. Getting a playable list working.

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 1:22 pm 
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Quote: (Erik M @ 29 May 2009, 13:19 )

Zombo, can we leave the Demiurg debate now? And concentrate on getting them sturdies out on the field. That's what this poll is about. Getting a playable list working.

Sorry, I didn't see your previous request; this probably belongs in a separate thread.

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 Post subject: Squats or Demiurg?
PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 1:36 pm 
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Quote: (Erik M @ 29 May 2009, 09:34 )

frogbear ~ Isn't that why you play with these very small dolls?  :p

No I just pretend to play so as I may entertain friendly discourse with Moscovian   :;):

Why, do you actually play with these small dolls?




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