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Curis v Stomp: Thurgrimm 1.0 Squats v Epic UK Black Templars

 Post subject: Curis v Stomp: Thurgrimm 1.0 Squats v Epic UK Black Templars
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:35 pm 
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Introduction

Here's a blow-by-blow write-up of a 4k game versus the Epic UK Black Templars under the seasoned hand of Stompzilla.

I've chosen a list that's reasonably infantry heavy to illustrate how the Warriors and Berserkers with 10cm movement work in game. We paused and have also considered how a 15cm movement would affect their activations and strategy. However, with liberal helpings of tunnellers, double Iron Eagles and double Trikes, supported with indirect shots from the Goliaths and Colossus the Squat army chosen is balanced and edgy.

We agreed to tone down the Colossus to CC and FF 4+ (from 3+), and remove Invulnerable from its onboard Ancestor Lord. We also considered dropping its EA +2 Bolters as OTT, and reducing its DC from 5 to 4, but that was too radical. These were the only changes we made to the current play test document.


Squat Forces

Pithead (50)

Warriors (250), Brotherhood Warlord (50)*, Grand Warlord (50), Rhinos (0)

Warrior (250), Thunderers (150), Rhinos (0)

Warrior (250), Thunderers (150)

Hellbore (125)

Berserkers (175), + Berserkers (25), Mole (30)

Berserkers (175), + Berserkers (25), 4 Termites (40)

Iron Eagles (275)

Iron Eagles (275)

Thunderfires (100)

Thunderfires (100)

Thunderfires (100)

Bikes (225), + 3 Trikes (45)

Bikes (225), + 3 Trikes (45)

Colossus (450), Ancestor Lord [with no invulnerable] (50)

Goliaths (300)

3985 TOTAL, 15 activations

(*Oops! He's 75, not 50 points. My bad.)


Epic UK Black Templar Forces

SPACESHIP [200]
Strike Cruiser

TERMINATOR [450]
4 Terminator units, Marshall

LAND RAIDER [350]
4 Land Raider Crusader

LANDING CRAFT [350]
1 Landing Craft

PREDATORS [350]
4 x Predator Destructors, 2 x Hunters

LANDING CRAFT [350]
1 Landing Craft

ASSAULT [175]
4 Assault units

ASSAULT [175]
4 Assault units

THUNDERHAWK [200]
1 Thunderhawk gunship

LAND SPEEDER [200]
5 Land Speeder

LAND SPEEDER [200]
5 Land Speeder

DEVASTATOR [250]
4 Devastator Units plus Transport

TACTICAL [400]
6 Tactical units plus Transport, Castellan, 2 Neophyte

TACTICAL [350]
6 Tactical units plus Transport, 2 Neophyte


Objective Placement

With Strategy Rating 5 Stomp wasn't tempted to choose corners, figuring Squats are slow enough even on the long edge.

Aware of the Squat's poor movement, I chose to place the objectives reasonably close to the halfway line, while keeping them clumped towards the Templar Blitz in a loose Triangle of Doom.

Stomp placed his objectives a mere 30cm from his table edge to prevent the Squats garrisoning too far forward, and potentially to help his dropping Marines land, capture objectives and storm forward to the Squat Blitz.


Deployment

Squats had a largely symmetrical deployment with the Warrior Brotherhoods front and centre to minimise the distance to the Templar Blitz, flanked on either side by the nippy Guild Bike and Iron Eagle formations.. The immobile Thunderfires set up close to the Blitz to help contest it. The left flank were the Goliaths, which were anticipating Templar airpower so were supported by the amazing Colossus. (Oops, I bought a Pithead and put nothing in it. Guess that cancels out my mispointed Brotherhood Warlord.)

The Templars only garrisoned two sets of Speeders, the bulk of the army in reserve. Two Tacticals and the Devastators were drop podding on Turn 1, Terminators were Teleporting, two Assault formations were in a Thunderhawk, and one Landing Craft laden with Predators, a second Landing Craft with Crusaders. The fight would come to the Squats.

But the Squats had two Berserker Brotherhoods and one Warrior Brotherhood tunnelling in reserve.


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 Post subject: Re: Curis v Stomp: Thurgrimm 1.0 Squats v Epic UK Black Temp
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:06 pm 
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Turn 1 - Opening Salvoes

Lily Allen popped up on iTunes' shuffle and battle commenced.

The Black Templar Terminators teleported on the left flank, into cover of the woods but just in 15cm of the Goliaths in order to launch an assault with Devastating Powerfists. Stomp is keen to neutralise my artillery as Squats rely on its range and hitting power to mitigate their lack of fliers.

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However, very improbably the SR2 Squats win initiative on a six and go first. Anticipating the brunt of the Templar pre-plotted drop attack will now happen on the left flank the Goliaths decide to activate before the Deathwinds fall, and Sustain on the Templars. Their Ignore Cover is useful, but the Reinforced armour is too much and the Templars are left with Blast Markers.

However, that's enough preparation for an engagement and the Ancestor Colossus Engages with its (still) awesome FF attacks. It would be deliberately clipping the Terminators to deny them their Macros and also meaning any hits are FF (and taken on the Voids), but its dismal 10cm only allows this anyway.

Even with the reduced Firefight and the continuing passing of 4+ Reinforced saves the Colossus decisively won combat at +5 thanks to Inspiring. Two Templar hack downs, leaving only the Supreme Commander broken in a rubbly hill on the left flank. All for the cost of 3 void shields. Templar BTS broken for now.

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The Templars strike back with the pre-plotted barrages placing BMs on the central-right Squat battleline across four formations.

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This is followed with Drop Pods from the Tactical and Devastator Marines on the right landing on the objective in the buildings and causing further death and mayhem.

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The right-hand Gyrocopters broke and fled forwards into the trenches. (Trenches were agreed pre-game as counting as open, but you can only see in if you're within 10cm of the edge and vice versa).

On the left flank the trick's repeated with a second set of Tacticals landing on the objective. Stomp had intended these guys to prep the engagement against the Colossus for the now-fled Terminators. Oops. A further void is knocked off the Colossus.

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These right flank Tacticals retain and sustain on the Bikes, nervous that they'll be chasing down the broken Supreme Commander with their Multi-Meltas.

But that leaves to Iron Eagles to do the same job. They advance on the SC and pop up over the woods inflicting four hits! But Stomp laugh these off with them all saving in the first round.

Image

Over on the right flank the Devastators in the buildings sustain and destroy a pair of Thunderfires, paving the way for aerial pain. The retain sees a similar move on the left flank with the Speeders doubling over to the overwatching Thunderfires in the woods. Despite no hits (7+s) the single blast marker breaks the formation, and the Speeders being within 15cm automatically destroys these 0cm movement emplacements. The Squats are looking naked to the sky.

Image

Anticipating an aerial thrust on the left flank against the Colossus, a Squat Warrior Brotherhood tries to shift the Tacticals that are potentially in a great supporting fire position. They engage, carefully pushing their Rhinos to the front to stop the Tacticals counter-charging towards the supporting Colossus (which was closer) and denying the Warrior Brotherhood much of its firefight. The Squats win by four and the Tacticals flee.

Image

Here's the first instance where the 10/15cm movement comes into effect in engagements. An extra 5cm of movement have seen would double the number of Warrior stands (4<8) in the engagement. A 15cm engagement move is pretty slow, 10cm is terrible. This is an aspect of the 10cm move that isn't mitigated by free Rhinos (unless you want to start the turn in them). If Stomp had been a bit cannier on the drop, he could've reduced this engagement to just the Rhinos.

Back to the game! The right flank entrenched Tacticals sustain on the bikes. Poor Templar rolling caused no casualties.

Image

These Bikers, perilously close to breaking with all the BMS from bombardment, Pods and Tacticals decide to marshal and move into the trench, removing 3 bm.

Image

Stomp is now ready to implement phase two of his trademark Templar-Stomp...


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 Post subject: Re: Curis v Stomp: Thurgrimm 1.0 Squats v Epic UK Black Temp
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:06 pm 
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Turn 1 - Aerial Insertion

Two Landing Craft and a Thunderhawk Gunship are en route the Marine airbase, and they start to slam into the game. A Landing Craft laden with Predators and Hunters comes down the left, intent on rolling up the flank. It War Engine barges the Gyrocopters into a little cluster, very deliberately ending the approach move with the Colossus in support range. By now two entire batteries of Thunderfires have been expertly cleaned off, and the surviving battery on the right flank out of range. It comes in unthreatened.

Stomp also likes to Planetfall his Landing Craft to avoid AA, but he was confident that he could neuter it in time.

Two Gyrocopters die, but with the Colossus' awesome 7x FF4+ +1 MW 4+ in support fire 4 Marine tanks die total. The result is a draw, with a second round of support fire from the Ancestor Colossus. This damages and criticals the Landing Craft - meaning the Squats win the engagement - though only just. The single surviving Gyrocopter flees forward to cause a nuisance later. A single Predator lurks on the far left next to the broken SC.

Stomp was hoping to've won, killing all the Copters and putting a further blast marker on the Colossus for a later engagement with the Predators and Landing Craft in support. Serious Templar error putting the Colossus in support fire range. It looks like it's going very wrong for the Templars with the lost initiative, fleeing Termies and now a dead Landing Craft.


Image

Image


The Squats, on the upper hand activate one of the Mighty warrior Brotherhoods in the centre. Even though their Marine targets lie in front of them tantalisingly, their Heavy Bolters are struggling with a 30cm range and suppression is hampering the Thunderers. A single 10cm move doesn't help remedy this much so the Squats elect to double just so they can bring their weapons to bear. The double does admittedly serve a secondary purpose of getting them a tad closer to the Marine half. But with a few Rhinos gone this formation will struggle to contribute and their 20cm move is a limp in return for a huge drop in firepower. One stand of Marines is falls to their firepower.

Image

The second Landing Craft laden with Crusaders lands and shoots the Guild Bikes on the left flank. Casualties are low as both the Landing Craft and Colossus block a lot of LoS. Not a great move ... on the surface...

Image

On the right flank the surviving Thunderfires sustain on the Devastators with their Battlecannons, killing one and breaking the formation. The formation started with Blast Markers, and so this a rare case of Stubborn coming into play removing the blast marker.

Image

Further on the right flank, the lurking Speeders double towards the trench and clean up the three broken Gyrocopters with just one hit. Nicely done, bit of a Squat mistake fleeing those forwards.

Image

And the hammer strike falls! The Templar Thunderhawk with two formations of Assault Marines engages the Colossus. Fed up with the Ancestor's extra Firefight Macro (and perhaps bitter for the double blow it's inflicted on the Terminator BTS and Landing Craft) Stomp bases it with all eight Marines AND the Thunderhawk. The Marines win the combat, and critical the Colossus, but don't manage to pull it down. Fearless, and immobile, and trapped anyway it stays where it is.

Image

No more activations either side.

The Landing Craft and Thunderhawk elect not to take off, wanting to avoid the Thunderfires, and perhaps hoping to scoop up formation Turn 2 to redeploy Turn 3 on objectives.

Various things rally, importantly the Squat Colossus. The Terminators importantly fail to rally, despite the Supreme Commander using the reroll on himself.

Image

End of Turn 1. Templars have suffered some serious setbacks, and have been unable to bring down the Colossus. The Squats are losing a lot of their nippy formations as the Templars are focussing on them and not the Warrior Brotherhoods.


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 Post subject: Re: Curis v Stomp: Thurgrimm 1.0 Squats v Epic UK Black Temp
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:07 pm 
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Turn 2 - Arise Hellbore

The Templars have played their hand, with nothing left in reserve. The Squats have some tunnelling cards up their sleeve - two Berserker formations and one Thunderer-caked Warrior Brotherhood.

The Warrior Brotherhood has elected a Turn 2 Squat-half entrance. It pops up on the halfway line in line with the Templar Blitz, and the fourteen stands deploy out making sure the Thunderers and Hearthguard are shielded from incoming fire.

Image

Templars win the initiative, and waste no time focussing on the wounded Colossus. The formation of three Assault Marines engage, and with their supporting attack cause another point of damage. But they lose the engagement by one and flee. The second Assault Marines retain and finally reduce it to zero damage. Squat BTS lost.

Image

Image

The Goliaths realise with the loss of their Guardian Colossus they're probably next. They get off what could be their last activation and choose to pick on the broken Terminator as Stomp's carefully disabled anything on the left flank that would zoom into range and threaten his BTS. With 6BP they don't even need to cause any hits! Bonus! But then Stomp remembers that with two blast markers from all their support fire to losing engagements one's suppressed and it's only 3BP, so I do have to kill them conventionally. They pass another 4+ invulnerable. And now I lack the extra template they can't also clip the lone Predator. But for the second time in the game the Stubborn rules comes into effect and they remove a blast marker for remaining stationary.

Image

But aha! The lone rallied Iron Eagle retains and finishes the job. Hurrah! Templar BTS lost, 1-1.

Image

At this point the Squats were also teeing up actions for the Warrior Brotherhood on the centre-left. With no AT at all they are powerless against almost the whole flank - Landing Craft, Land Raiders, Thunderhawk. They could launch a clipping engagement with a 10cm move, or (with a 15cm move) launch a much more reasonable engagement with an extra 4 stands in combat. They don't activate yet, but were considered.


Image

The Speeders fail an activation with the Speeders, and move away.

Back to the Warrior Brotherhood, and without even the Land Speeders to shoot at they limp away 20cm to protect the Squat Blitz with a double.

Image

On the right flank the rallied Devastators marshal and pop another Rhino from the unactivated Warrior Brotherhood to further hamper their mobility. Stomp's not focussing firepower on these formations, merely picking off a few transports to stop them threatening his marines.

The Squats grumble in frustration, measuring the engagement range of the formation, noting again the 5cm movement would let them mount one that's halfway decent.

Image

Instead an under-strength formation of Trikes double and nip round the back to crossfire the pesky Devastators. No casualties.

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But the Warriors continue the crossfire, even though they're heavily suppressed with Blast markers they manage to kill the last two stands. Their 10cm move gets them a little further forward to objectives, though part of it is spent jiggling the formation to stop the Thunderers being suppressed.

Image


Behind them, the entrenched Tacticals fire and break the remaining, Thunderfires.

Image


Trikes (excuse the weird angle - they're the formation in the trench in the right) start their activation in the Speeders' Zone of Control and march out to get something, anything, please something in the Templar half for turn 3.

Image

Tacticals on the left single into the woods. Their one unsuppressed stand breaks the lone Gyrocopter which flees towards the Templar Blitz.

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The Warriors that tunnelled to the halfway line in the now utterly immobile Hellbore try and march. But they fail on a 1, even with the Supreme Commander re-roll, and shuffle forwards 10cm.

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On the extreme left the lone Predator (line of fire shown by tape measure) puts a Blast Marker on the Goliaths.

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The immobile, weaponless and Hellbore ponders its existence.

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The landed Thunderhawk marshals and also shoots the Goliaths. It does a point of damage, which is a critical. The second Goliath is broken and, unable to flee outside of 15cm, also dies.

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No Squat activations left. The Crusaders fail their activation. Instead of cleaning up broken Thunderfire with a single they clean off markers. (Tape measure shows their intended path and line of fire.)

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With no Squat AA the Landing Craft lifts off unmolested, and the Thunderhawk leaves the Squat edge picking up a blast marker.

Image

Most stuff rallies, importantly the lone Iron Eagle in the Templar half.

End of Turn 2.


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 Post subject: Re: Curis v Stomp: Thurgrimm 1.0 Squats v Epic UK Black Temp
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:08 pm 
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Turn 3 - Berserker Fury

Going into the last turn the Squats and Templars are evenly matched, with still everything to play for. Both have lost their BTS, and have a similar number of activations. The Warrior Brotherhoods are struggling to move forwards, but will their reserves turn the tide of the battle?

The two Berserker Brotherhoods Tunnellers surface in the Templar half, slapbang on the Blitz and left-hand objective.

Image

The Templars win the initiative.

Stomp decides to ignore my Warrior Brotherhoods and go after the newly-arrived Berserkers. The Thunderhawk lands next to the non-Blitz formation, and opens fire at the infantry.

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The Speeders retain and single, cleaning off the lone rallied Gyrocopter. They also spread out to stop these Berserkers also threatening the Blitz, and masterfully catching the Berserkers in their 10cm ZoC. Careful positioning indicated here by Stomp's hand.

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The five-strong Trikes formation that pulled off last turn's crossfires now arrange themselves onto the right-flank's Templar objective, while sniping at the Speeders hoping to close down a little bit of the Templar mobility. No kills. No retain, hoping to out-activate the Templars.

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Those Speeders nip round to the Squat Blitz, shooting at the Brotherhood and disrupting it with the Scout ZoC.

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The Warriors, sensing an pending engagement to get the Blitz with Speeders in support they attempt to withdraw the ZoC and bring some firepower to bear on the Speeders. Unfortunately they fail even with the Supreme Commander reroll and are forced to simply withdraw the ZoC. But even if they had, that mighty bastion of fire would have only got four shots at 5+ with their half Heavy Bolters.

Image

The Warriors' fears are increased as the left-flank Tacticals (pictured in the woods) double and crossfire the Brotherhood using the Speeders.

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The second Brotherhood, though able to march to capture one of Templar objectives, decide a better move would to be obstruct the destruction of their slowly-surrounded brother Brotherhood and potential capture of the Squat Blitz. Unable to see through the buildings at the entrenched Tacticals, they have to double to get the majority of the formation in line of sight. Despite incredibly pedantic Squat jiggling to suppress the Rhinos, there are no hits to save from the 14 stands. These Tacticals fail to activate, and shoot at Warriors on Blitz, bringing them ever-closer to breaking.

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In an attempt to stall, the Hellbore activates and ponders its immobile and unshooty existence.

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On the left flank, a lone Assault Marines stand marshals and claims the Squat's left-hand woodland objective.

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Eager to help their screened Berserker brethren, the Hellbore-delivered Warriors in the centre engage the Speeders, wiping them out and putting a blast marker on the Thunderhawk.

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Assault Marines (pictured below the Spaceship) march toward the Blitz, surrounding its guardian Brotherhood some more, and also complicating the move for anything attempting to march back to contest it for the Squats.

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Time to pull off the key engagements with Berserkers! The non-Blitz formation, now Speeder-free want to engage the blast markered Thunderhawk. But they fail, and shuffle 10cm forward into hopeful support fire range.


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With still a few Templar activations left, Stomp unexpectedly brings on his Landing Craft. With its massive length it can straddle both Berserker-held objectives. This could be a fatal mistake, as the Squats still have activations left and can counter this flying castle. It swivels its shots behind it to the Berserkers on the Blitz to complicate their activation.

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And these Blitz Berserkers ready themselves to engage the Landing Craft. If they do this, then they get much closer to the win. They engage, but fail, and elect to clear blast markers, unable to capitalise on Stomp's mistake. Disaster!

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The Crusaders come over and rake the Blitz-guarding Warriors, finally breaking them. They fire at infantry in the open to maximise casualties, and inadvertently restore the Rhino:infantry ratio necessary for 30cm moves. For the first time in the game a Warrior brotherhood all moves move speedily. (See them flee towards the left.) Black Templars have the Blitz, and two Squat objectives.

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In a last ditch attempt to salvage a little bit of the game (turning a 1-3 into a 1-2) the day, the Trikes march over from extreme right to the left-hand Squat woodland objective. The wealth of Templars near the Blitz prevented them finding their way through to the Squat Blitz.

Image

However, the lone nuisance Predator comes over and crossfires them away.

Game Over. Templars 3. Squats 1.


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 Post subject: Re: Curis v Stomp: Thurgrimm 1.0 Squats v Epic UK Black Temp
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:54 pm 
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Good game guys.

Have to say I'm disappointed the Thunderhawk full of Assault Marines didn't plough into one of the Brotherhoods, but I suppose there were bigger fish to fry :)


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 Post subject: Re: Curis v Stomp: Thurgrimm 1.0 Squats v Epic UK Black Temp
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:21 pm 
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And how! We were hoping it would happen, but I'd left the Thunderers off my Warrior Brotherhood with the Grand Warlord specifically to make the less-hackable Ancestor Colossus the BTS. If Warriors had been the BTS, or not as toothless then Stomp may've done that. But yeah, as you say, bigger fish to fry.

A Hellbore-delivered fourteen strong Warrior formation were unable to flee from a pair of Thunderhawking Assault formations in a prior game - so it has happened. It wasn't actually intentional that time either, just a horrid realisation that Squats with the u-shape the Assault Marines had managed engaging the clump they had to go more than 20cm to get out of 15cm.


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 Post subject: Re: Curis v Stomp: Thurgrimm 1.0 Squats v Epic UK Black Temp
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:40 pm 
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What do you think of the proposal for a special rule that I floated: auto kills for squats only occur if they end up in a ZoC rather than 15cm. That would allow them to remain iconically slow, without turning them into a crippled army, perhaps?

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 Post subject: Re: Curis v Stomp: Thurgrimm 1.0 Squats v Epic UK Black Temp
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:49 pm 
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Eerily similar to what's being booted round Flame On at the moment. But it would have to be used in conjunction with a 15cm movement else it's just a band-aid for the game-mechancs problems caused by a 10cm move (like Infiltrator and Hearthguard.)

In fact, here's my current thought..

Quote:
Never Flee. Never Surrender.

Squats are a tenacious race, stubborn to the core and unwilling to run from a fight, even when it may prove the more sensible option. Broken Squat units with NFNS may only make one withdrawal move, instead of two (1.13.3). If this withdrawal move ends within 5cm of the enemy, the units is destroyed (instead of the usual 15cm).


Y'see, in conjunction with a 15cm move it still limits Squat movement - like to opposite of the Eldar's special rule that lets them consolidate their whole movement value.

Yet to try it though, or even think through its abuse potential.


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 Post subject: Re: Curis v Stomp: Thurgrimm 1.0 Squats v Epic UK Black Temp
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:50 pm 
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If you're going up to a 15cm move then I'd tend to see the problem as gone, and a special rule as harder to justify.

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 Post subject: Re: Curis v Stomp: Thurgrimm 1.0 Squats v Epic UK Black Temp
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:39 pm 
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Ignore -1 to rally if within 30cm of the enemy is still my favourite and the most representative of squat's stubborness in the face of the enemy IMO.

I do have thoughts on the squat list following this game but it's going to take some time to write up and i'm thoroughly knackered tonight, so it'll have to wait.


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 Post subject: Re: Curis v Stomp: Thurgrimm 1.0 Squats v Epic UK Black Temp
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:17 pm 
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I object to ignore -1 for nearby enemies every time someone proposes it for any list, it's so easy to be gamey with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Curis v Stomp: Thurgrimm 1.0 Squats v Epic UK Black Temp
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:57 pm 
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More so than some of the other zany ideas being put forward for this rule? The effects of any gamey-ness from this are relatively minor (So you force a broken enemy to rally at -1 for being within 30cm while not suffering it yourself, big whoop, real game-breaker that one. Much worse than half hackdowns etc. [/sarcasm]) and add a bit of flavour to an army that, if stated correctly, doesn't actually NEED any special rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Curis v Stomp: Thurgrimm 1.0 Squats v Epic UK Black Temp
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:11 pm 
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Yes, it's worse. Certainly worse than half hackdowns (which is a mechanic that already works fine, of course).

It actively gimps the enemy's army, and at the same time strongly incentivises broken squats to "charge" at you.

Are squats stubborn and brave etc, or are they frothing nutters who want to get as close as possible to the enemy, even when broken?

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 Post subject: Re: Curis v Stomp: Thurgrimm 1.0 Squats v Epic UK Black Temp
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:57 am 
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It's a mehanic that already works well for very small, elite formations of Space Marines, yes. Not for mahoosive formations of squat warriors (Who's only real use at the moment is as a huge tarpit)

I think you're revealing your inexperience here quite a bit Ben. Any squat general is going to move forwards when broken anyway - they need the extra movement (It's not just squats, when broken I tend to move forwards with most things). I'll quit often position a broken unit deliberately within 30cm of broken enemy too. For a single stand of assault marines who'll then rally 1/2 of the time to make enemy broken units only have a 1/3 chance (For most 2+ activating armies) is totally worth it. It's not uncommon at all.

Really we're talking about squats going from 5+ to rally within 30 cm of the enemy to always rallying on a 4+. Not exactly devastating for an army that activates naturally on a 2+.


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