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3k AMTL 2.0 vs Phase III 'nid 8.4m
Dave
 Post subject: 3k AMTL 2.0 vs Phase III 'nid 8.4m
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:51 pm 
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I guess you can call this "the usual" for DS and I.  However, we reread the rules and I think we nailed all of them but a few minor things.  My drops and barrage (plotted before deployment this time ;) ) landed completely on target, and once the AMTL was hard pressed for the entire game.

A slight change though came in a second Reaver!  DS dubbed this one a "Weedwhacker Class" as it came toting a chainfist that wrecked one of my assault swarms.

Dave's Phase III Tryanid Assault army list

Attack Swarm - 300
 1 Hive Tyrant, 3 Carnifex, 3 Zoanthropes
Assault Swarm 1 - 350
 3 Warriors, 8 Termagants, 4 Hormagaunts
Assault Swarm 2 - 350
 3 Warriors, 8 Termagants, 4 Hormagaunts
Assault Swarm 3 - 350
 3 Warriors, 8 Termagants, 4 Hormagaunts
Assault Swarm 4 - 350
 3 Warriors, 8 Termagants, 4 Hormagaunts
Assault Swarm 5 - 300
 3 Warriors, 5 Biovores
Genestealer Swarm 1 - 150
 6 Genestealers
Genestealer Swarm 2 - 150
 6 Genestealers
Hive Ship - 300
52 Spore Pods - 260
Hive Mind Link -100

8(9)/2960

Synapse: 850 < 1000
Independent: 200 < 1000

BTS: 9 Synapse

Dwarf Supreme's Titan Legions army list

Reaver Titan - 750
 1 Reaver with 2 Gatling Blasters and Multiple Rocket Launcher, Legate
Reaver Titam - 650
 1 Reaver with 1 Gatling Blaster, 1 Vulcan Mega-Bolter and one Chainfist
Warhound Pack - 500
 2 Warhounds with Vulcan Mega Bolters and Turbolaser Destructors
Cataphract Cohort - 350
 6 Leman Russ
Skitarii Cohort - 250
 6 Skitarii units, 3 Chimera, Skitarii Tribune, 1 Chimera
Paladin Household - 500
 6 Paladins, Seneschal

6/3000

BTS: Reaver with Legate

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Dave
 Post subject: 3k AMTL 2.0 vs Phase III 'nid 8.4m
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:52 pm 
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Turn 1
Initiative: Dave

Tyranid Initial Deployment:


AMTL Initial Deployment:


After seeing where DS left his Paladins I decided to bring the Hive Ship right away.  Its orbital bombardment landed right on all size of the Paladins taking out the Seneschal and one other, breaking the formation.  I realize now that I didn't use my Pin-point attack (doh...) however.

Assault Swarm 3 hit dirtside right in fron of the Skitarii, taking out 3 Skitarii and 1 Chimera from Acidic Spore Bursts.



Assault Swarm 2 landed fairly close to the Legate as well but only took out 1 Void Shield with its Acidic Spore Burt.


Assault Swarm 1 also landed right between the Warhounds and Cataphract Cohort, taking down 1 Void Shield and placing 1 BM on the Russes.

Finally, the Attack Swarm made planetfall between the Warhounds and Paladins, taking down another Paladin and a Warhound Void Shield thanks to its Acidic Spore Burst.


I retained with an engage action from the Attack Swarm, and they charged the Warhounds.


1 Carnifex and 1 Warhound went down while the other took 1 point of damage and a down VS thanks to Assault Swarm 1's supporting fire. The 'nids pulled out a 11-6 win.  The Warhound, with no place to run to, stayed put and hoped to rally.


The Legate thins the masses of Assault Swarm 2 with a sustain, 7 Termegants go down.

DS attempted to retain with the Weedwhacker at this point with an advance, however he failed both the initial roll and the Supreme Commander re-roll!  Two 1s in a roll ment all the Weedwhacker could do was draw a line of site on two Termagants, which were promptly taken down.

Assault Swarm 1 engages the Cataphracts next.


1 Hormagaunt and 4 Russes go down, and in a 14-7 result roll the rest of the russes are wiped out.


With no remaining formations to activate DS passes the initiative to me.  Assault Swarm 3 engages the Skitarii, claiming 3 Skitarii and 3 Chimera.  In a 15-4 result roll the rest of the formation is wiped out.

With no viable targets Assault Swarm 4, Assault Swarm 5 and Genestealer Swarm 1 march towards the Paladins.

Genestealer Swarm 2 marches to the hill overlooking the Weedwhacker in preperation for next turn.

Assault Swarm 2 engages the reaver and looses 1 Hormagaunt and 1 Termagant.  The result is a tie 6-6, another round is fought, another Hormagaunt goes down and in a 12-7 win for DS the rest of the Hormagaunts go down leaving the Fearless Warriors to retreat behind the cover of the hill.

End Phase:

The Attack Swarm spawns 1 Carnifex and 3 Hormagaunts.
Assault Swarm 1 spawns 4 Teramgants.
Assault Swarm 2 rallies with 1 BM.
Assault Swarm 3 spawns 1 Teramgant and 2 Hormagaunts.
Assault Swarm 4 spawns 5 Teramgants.

All brood creatures lost in turn 1 are back in play.

The Weedwhacker rallies and is left with 0 BM.
The Paladins rally with 1 BM.
The Warhound fails to rally.

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Dave
 Post subject: 3k AMTL 2.0 vs Phase III 'nid 8.4m
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:55 pm 
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Turn 2
Initiative: DS

Tyranid Start of Turn 2:


AMTL Right Flank at the Start of Turn 2:


AMTL Left Flank at the Start of Turn 2:


The Weedwhacker finally gets its legs and advances of Assault Swarm 3, 3 Hormagaunts and 3 Termagants are mowed down.

The Paladins retain and egages the Attack Swarm in hopes of saving the Warhound.
http://lh4.google.com/dsusco....014.JPG

1 Carnifex and 2 Hormagaunts go down along with 2 Paladins, in an 7-11 win for the 'nids the remaining Paladin goes down.


Assault Swarm 5 fails its sustain action on the Legate but re-rolls and get it thanks to the Hive Mind Link. In the end it was for nought.

The Legate advances on the Warriors from Assault Swarm 2 and blows them out of the water.

Assault Swarm 1 engages the broken warhound.


The Warhound goes down for the price of 2 Hormagaunts.
http://lh4.google.com/dsusco....017.JPG

Genestealer Swarm 1 engages the Weedwhacker, taking out 1 DC before its Chainfist just mowed them all down.

Assault Swarm 3, charges the Weedwhacker as well with similar results...


The lone surving Warrior retreats to the cover of the hill.


While the weedwhacker is left with no Void Shields and 5 DC. It consolidates to cover the Legates back.


Meanwhile Genestealer Swarm 2 decides the Legate couldn't possibly put up the same kind of fight.


They were wrong however as 4 Genestealers go down while the Legate looses only 2 DC.  The rest of the Genestealers are wiped out in the 6-11 win for the Legate.

The Attack Swarm and Assault Swarm 4 marches towards the Legate in preperation for Turn 3.

End Phase:

The Attack Swarm spawns 1 Hormagaunt and is left with no BMs.
Assault Swarm 1 spawns 1 Carnifex and 2 Teramgants.
Assault Swarm 3 rallies.
Assault Swarm 4 1 Hormamgaunt.
Assault Swarm 5 spwans 4 Teramgants.

The Weedwhacker and Legate rally and are left with 1 BM each.




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Dave
 Post subject: 3k AMTL 2.0 vs Phase III 'nid 8.4m
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:55 pm 
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Turn 3
Initiative: DS

Start of Turn 3:


The Tyranid Line at the Start of Turn 3:


The Legate begeins to the thin the hordes for the coming assault.  Assault Swarm 5 bears the brunt of its sustain fire, loosing 4 Biovores and 2 Termgants.

The Weedwhacker retains and advances on the Attack Swarm, however only 1 Hormagaunt was in range.  The Hormagaunt was unceremoniously destroyed.

The Attack Swarm engages the Legates bringing Assault Swarm 4 with it.


The Legate looses 1 DC while 2 Termagants go down.  In a very close 9-8 result the Legate stays put.


Assault Swarm 3 (aka my lone Warrior) marches towards one of the AMTL objectives.


Assault Swarm 1 marches towards the AMTL Blitzkrieg.


The Tyranids win in 3-0 with Blitzkrieg, Take And Hold and They Shall Not Pass.

End Phase:

The Attack Swarm spawns 2 Hormagaunts.
Assault Swarm 1 spawns 3 Hormagaunts.
Assault Swarm 3 spwans 3 Teramgants.
Assault Swarm 4 3 Hormamgaunts.
Assault Swarm 5 spwans 1 Biovore and 2 Teramgants.

The Weedwhacker and Legate rally and are left with 0/1 BM and 5/2 DC respectively.




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Chroma
 Post subject: 3k AMTL 2.0 vs Phase III 'nid 8.4m
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:07 pm 
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(Dave @ Jan. 28 2008,17:52)
QUOTE
All brood creatures lost in turn 1 are back in play.

So, do you think the Hive Ship spawning bonus is too powerful when combined with the Markconz variant auto-spawning?

Thanks for the report, btw!

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Dave
 Post subject: 3k AMTL 2.0 vs Phase III 'nid 8.4m
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:09 pm 
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Thoughts:

As I said DS and I re-read the rules, I think we got everything pretty accurate.  Reading back now here's the only things I think we should have done differently, please correct me if I'm wrong:

The Titans should have taken a BM for coming under fire, even though they had Void Shields.

When the Acidic Spore Burst pod came down 1 Paladin was hit and it failed its save.  Then 2 BM (one from coming under fire and one for a Paladin lost) should have been put on the Paladin, taking down the remaining two with no saves because they were broken, correct?

Thoughts on the Phase III list:

I've yet to see how this list fares when the barrage and drops aren't on target.  I couldn't have asked for a better deployment in this game.  The Paladins and Warhounds were broken, and the Skitarii and Russes wiped out by the end of the first turn.  All DS could do was use his Reavers, and one failed its activation WITH re-roll!

I'd really like to see what it would be like if I didn't hit anything with my barrage and my drop zones weren't within engage range of enemy formations.

I think spawning in this list is pretty good, especially no spawning when broken.  The extra D3 from the Hive Ship is good, I have return everything lost in the first turn with that extra D3 in a couple of games.  But when Broods start breaking and all I get is D3 spawn points, getting stuff back on the table is hard.  It's a very linear decline of the course of turns I think.

Having disposable on the lesser brood creatures is powerful, breaking swarms comprised of just these creatures is really tough outside of a lost assault.

I still think LVs and AVs should cost 10 points to drop, drop Carnifex are murder, especially with 8.4m giving them RA.

Not sure how I feel about removing the "never count as having more BM in assault" from instinctive.  I don't think it makes that much of a difference, at least not from what I've seen.  Most of the formations I assault have more BMs than me thanks to the Spore Pods.




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Dave
 Post subject: 3k AMTL 2.0 vs Phase III 'nid 8.4m
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:15 pm 
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(Chroma @ Jan. 28 2008,13:07)
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So, do you think the Hive Ship spawning bonus is too powerful when combined with the Markconz variant auto-spawning?

Well like I said, I'd like to see what happens when I don't drop on target.  I think it that happens I'd end up with a lot more casualties and a few broken formations.  As soon as that happens I don't think I'd be spawning everything back in Turn 1.

I take back the linear decline comment, my spawn points went from 18 to 12 to 16.  So I don't think the Hive Ship is adding all that much.  When you look at the losses I suffered in the first turn compared to the others, it was rather light too.

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Chroma
 Post subject: 3k AMTL 2.0 vs Phase III 'nid 8.4m
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:46 pm 
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(Dave @ Jan. 28 2008,18:15)
QUOTE
Well like I said, I'd like to see what happens when I don't drop on target. ?I think it that happens I'd end up with a lot more casualties and a few broken formations. ?As soon as that happens I don't think I'd be spawning everything back in Turn 1.

I'm really surprised your opponent doesn't cluster his forces more for mutual support, especially since they *know* drops are coming. ?

You can't have the Drop Spores land in enemy ZoC so he could shield units from some of the spore attacks and such; additionally, war engines will block LOS to units behind them preventing them from being hit as well.

Being so spread out just seems to garrantee that many things are going to get pasted by dropping pods...

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Dave
 Post subject: 3k AMTL 2.0 vs Phase III 'nid 8.4m
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:51 pm 
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Agreed, but I'll let DS tell you his reasoning.

Had he been clustered all together near the Reavers, I don't think I would have faired so well.

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: 3k AMTL 2.0 vs Phase III 'nid 8.4m
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:57 pm 
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My thought on deployment was to avoid having formations too close together so that only one formation at a time could get hit with an orbital bombardment and swarms being dropped. I tend to deploy near my blitzkrieg objective (like parking the BTS Reaver by it) to make harder for Dave to capture. For this game I did the opposite in the hope that he would think I would do it as usual. It wasn't a bad idea, but in retrospect setting up in the corners was a really bad idea. Setting clustered more towards the middle would have been better. Also, if I had swapped positions of the Reavers, things might have been different.

Dave might disagree, but I think the opening turn combination of orbital bombardment and dropped formations is too powerful. Also, the spawning might need tweaking. It's really demoralizing to see that everything I kill in one turn (and I'm not talking an insignificant number) gets respawned at the end of the turn. However, my style of play is probably a factor also. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the most aggressive or creative general.

On the other hand, a Reaver armed with a chainfist can deliver significant punishment. I'm not sure I would take it all the time, but knowing I would be playing a horde army, I knew it would be useful.

Overall though, I'd rather lose a game of Epic, than not play one at all.

EDIT: Yeah, overlapping ZOCs might be a good idea. I'll have to try it out.




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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: 3k AMTL 2.0 vs Phase III 'nid 8.4m
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:32 am 
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Wow, very interesting and brutal report.

I have not looked at the phase 3 Nid list nor played with version 2 AMTL in a while (Testing TRC's Legio Victorum), but i would agree with several of the previous comments. I would always look to bunch my forces when facing a drop army in an all or nothing approach to getting hit, Scouts are a must to force dropping troops away from your main units.

The Phase 3 drop just looks scarey and definately looks like it needs careful planning to prevent, but I won't comment further until I have looked into the list more.

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Markconz
 Post subject: 3k AMTL 2.0 vs Phase III 'nid 8.4m
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:41 pm 
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Hmm yes this drop nid army seems very nasty, as to be expected if you've got no time to shoot at them I guess... :) Carnifexes in particular.

Thanks for the report.

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