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3k Emperor's Children vs. Scions of Iron

 Post subject: 3k Emperor's Children vs. Scions of Iron
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:21 pm 
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(Soren @ Jan. 22 2008,14:13)
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(rpr @ Jan. 22 2008,12:02)
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And marines have thunderhawk in main list, so... =]

Thats really no argument  ???

(It actually is, on the behalf of "same weaknesses" - other gets flyers out-of-1/3 section)

But yes you are correct in that sense that pair should give discount.


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 Post subject: 3k Emperor's Children vs. Scions of Iron
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:05 pm 
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(Markconz @ Jan. 22 2008,12:01)
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Speaking of slaanesh scout titans... Did anyone see how much the last Questor and Subjugator went for on e-bay? 26 GBP each.

Didn't the Questor go for 28? :p

I'm missing a Subjugator, but kinda gave up on the idea of winning when the price reached ?17. It's kinda annoying to own about half the needed daemon engines for each god. :(


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 Post subject: 3k Emperor's Children vs. Scions of Iron
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:19 pm 
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(Wisp @ Jan. 22 2008,18:05)
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I'm missing a Subjugator, but kinda gave up on the idea of winning when the price reached ?17. It's kinda annoying to own about half the needed daemon engines for each god. :(

When I started to play Epic:A after E40k I had "half a set" of daemon engines for each god so I decided to get rid of some in exchange to get more of some. Thus I traded away Tzeentch and was going to get rid of Nurgle too for Slaanesh, but that trade was never realised.


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 Post subject: 3k Emperor's Children vs. Scions of Iron
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:47 pm 
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Do you need more Slaanesh?  I have a few knights that I would trade for Nurgle stuff.  If you're interested, I'll pull them out and count up exactly how many, but it's at least 6.  Of course, I don't know how much shipping would be.  That might throw a wrench into the works.

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 Post subject: 3k Emperor's Children vs. Scions of Iron
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:18 pm 
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Shouldn't the Questor/Subjucators be more expensive in this list anyway as they get higher initiative than in the Land D list .


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 Post subject: 3k Emperor's Children vs. Scions of Iron
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:52 pm 
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And now back to the main event.... actually I get a very important call which made me very distracted for the rest of the match.. I hope my notes are accurate enough, 'tho.

TURN 3 - fight for the objectives

Initiative: Scions

Terminator advance toward Subjugator and open fire. Not that much effect. Thunderhawk CAS retains and bombs Daemon Knights #1, of which 2 are destroyed and rest rout to harass objective #3.

The last Daemon Knight #2 advances back to hunt the remaining Helios (and BTS), hits but saves. Again. Sigh. At least it is broken again and it retreats to further behind the buildings. Questor #1 retains, advabces a bit and opens fire at Bikes... but only 2 are lost, resulting in 3 blast markers and not breaking the remaining LS and bike.

Bikes marshal and secure object #3. Legionnaires advance and shoot at bikes - one kill is needed - but all miss. Thunderhawk SB makes a bomb run against Legionnaires, kills 2 stands and routs rest which secure the blitz objective.

Hell Blades with 3 blast markers manage to take into air and they ground attack bike and land speeder. Bike is destroyed and Land Speeder routs. Thunderhawk Transports attack Legionnaires but miss with all their 4 attacks. No chance for Scions to take Blitz now...

Chosen march to Blitz. Thunderbolts stand down. Subjugator marches to objective. Predator double to objective with Questor #1, contesting it. Some shots are fired at Questor but no hits or just one void shield. Daemon Prince and Rhino tries to activate but fails and routs (if I would have remembered that yes it is a leader then this would not have happened... rotten brain, what more can I say...). Daemon Prince just moves to make sure that Blitz cannot be contested.

Tactical doubles to contest objective #6 with Subjugator.

Helios and Legionnaires fail to rally, others do. Goals 1 (blitz) - 0 to EC. On we go...


(sorry for tilted camera. Predator are just out of picture behind the Questor on far right edge, Land Speeder quite close to them. Daemon Prince is next to Chosen on the top, circling the Scion blitz)


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 Post subject: 3k Emperor's Children vs. Scions of Iron
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:06 pm 
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TURN 4

Okay, my try to quick victory via objective supremacy failed. So close, but so far away... And now we were running out of time AND my mind was still elsewhere (big big call earlier). But onward we go...

Initiative: EC

Subjugator decides to engage Tacticals. Victory here will be very lucrative... but other claw misses, Subjugator takes damage, staggers to building for one more damage, and thus loses the engagement and is routed. At least it kills Prometheus so no more supreme commander for scions! Subjugator then runs to block the advance of Terminators (gee I just love the GT objective rules). Lone Land Speeder then advances to objective #3, opens fire at Daemon Knights #1 which are then routed. They move to block Terminators a bit more...

At this point it is anyway obvious that Scions cannot win via goals. So they aim for draw and score counting... Predators retain but hold and shoot single void shield from Questor #1. Questor replies by marshalling and shooting other predator, routing the other. Now Chaos has blitz and other objective on very far right...

Thunderhawk SB bombs Chosen plus Daemon Prince which was too close (well not actually, it needed to block that direction to keep the blitz secured). DP is routed (again, forgot the leader when rallied) and one Chosen stand is killed. Chosen marshal. Tacticals hold after rolling '1' and their Supreme Commander stomped by Subjugator.

Hell Blades are put to CAP. Then the remaining air circus hits Chosen.  Thunderhawk Transports attack them (CAPped, but all hits saved), then Thunderhawk CAS and finally Thunderbolts. No Chosen are killed but 4 blast markers is enough to rout them. No blitz for Chaos.


(how many flyers are needed to rout Chosen?)

As the last activation, Terminator open fire at Subjugator and destroy it.

Final goals: 0-0
Destroyed stuff: 1387.5 to 1112.5 for 275 point marginal victory (?) for Scions.


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 Post subject: 3k Emperor's Children vs. Scions of Iron
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:14 pm 
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AFTERTHOUGHTS

Strategical errors were made by both sides. Rule errors were made (my DP leader, the flyer AA). It was fun match after all, but it was also a prime example of "what is wrong in E:A GT" for me - silly objective hunting, controlled by lone units. I really feel that there is too many objectives for 3k armies in GT scenario. On my opinion some better general balanced scenario system (at least objective) is needed, but more of that on separate thread...

Of units: LR Crusaders in transport felt horrible when they arrived but after all...? Maybe not at all. "New" Hell Blades still seemed O.K. Yet again I think that anything that can transport things, is an extra activation, AND can drop a blast marker anywhere on the board (maybe also destroy units) is worth many points (read: Orca is too cheap). This of course come to my mind when I saw the THawk Transporters, but as they are 250 points so that is more okay.

I'd really love some useful AA beside fighters in this list :]
But the EC list is okay to play and does not look very unbalanced - of course I have not yet played against very infantry heavy army, that one might get brutally ass-raped.


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 Post subject: 3k Emperor's Children vs. Scions of Iron
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:51 pm 
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(and if the question concerning Slaanesh was aimed at me: No, I do not need more Slaanesh, or perhaps at most one Subjugator and/or Questor, plus Fiends of Slaanesh ..
so most probably I will keep Nurgle for LatD purposes - or perhaps even DG, as I have 8 Contagion Engines and one Plague Tower.)

But I have 2 extra Silver Towers and Cannos of Khorne if anyone is interested...


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 Post subject: 3k Emperor's Children vs. Scions of Iron
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:28 am 
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nevertheless, if Warhound is +25 pts , also all other scout titans should ++25 pts to give the advantage of taking them single a price. A DISCOUNT for taking them in pairs is the wrong way. They are worth the points they cost now (maybe too cheap at 225) , discounting is a no go.

If you do not reach a good amount of activation, make the units cheaper by erading some of their senseless good abilities.

but I know, it?s Chaos, unfair is only space marine.

btw which army list is used? this one on the SG site?





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 Post subject: 3k Emperor's Children vs. Scions of Iron
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:15 pm 
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Why couldn't the Scions win by objectives after the Knights broke?  They had a T&H and there were no EC that could contest the Blitz because all were broken.  Even if the Knights/Subjugator were placed optimally to stop the Termies, why couldn't the Preds have Marched over to take the Blitz?

Maybe after the Predators failed to activate it would have been impossible but I don't understand why they couldn't up to that point.

Also, are you still playing the Knights as Scouts?  IIRC, Lord_I has stated that should be removed.  It's hard to tell scale from the pics, but without Scout on the knights, it seems like even near-optimal placement would have allowed a 75cm March from the Termies to get to the Blitz.

===

On a different note, while you play that they can't contest objectives, the SM aircraft still maintain the ability to land.  They can land to claim crossfire, improving both kills and BMs, as well as allowing them to support assaults.  They can air assault by themselves.  At the end of Turn 3, the Thawk Transports could have air assaulted the Legionaires instead of strafing.  Barring truly odd die rolls, they would have won handily (more attacks, better armor, fewer BMs, and outnumber) and forced the Legionaires off the Blitz.  They would have had the option to disengage normally at the end of the turn, or they could have stayed on the ground, starting Turn 4 with the Blitz captured.

The risk to the Transports would have been minimal as the EC would have had almost nothing to oppose them.  .  That would have been a completely different dynamic.  All the "retreat and block" maneuvers would have been vastly less valuable.

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 Post subject: 3k Emperor's Children vs. Scions of Iron
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:24 pm 
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Okay, okay, the list needs updating. I'll start a new thread, let's compile the changes and I'll try to find five minutes to bash my head against the keyboard to make the updated list.





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 Post subject: 3k Emperor's Children vs. Scions of Iron
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:01 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jan. 23 2008,18:15)
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Why couldn't the Scions win by objectives after the Knights broke?  They had a T&H and there were no EC that could contest the Blitz because all were broken.  Even if the Knights/Subjugator were placed optimally to stop the Termies, why couldn't the Preds have Marched over to take the Blitz?

As Hena stated, Blitz was secured by Legionnaires - it is amazing how much you can block with 10cm ZoC. The Subjugator and Daemon Knights around the Terminators were just there for some harassment and a quick 5 second decision - no actual effect here. Well if the flyers would have bombed the Legionnaires these were more like 'some extra security' at my thoughs, but yes, they would not have stopped marching Termies.

So at that point there was not that much 'blocking movement' - snatching away objectives by single units were the more dominant strategy in this one (blocking movement has been used more on other battles)

It is also true that there could have been better strategical decisions here, on both sides. It is always more fun when the game outcome is not completely decided by bad rolls but also by bad commands =]


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 Post subject: 3k Emperor's Children vs. Scions of Iron
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:31 pm 
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(Hena @ Jan. 23 2008,17:13)
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I couldn't at turn 4 as the Legionnaires Scout ability is enough to prevent anyone from getting to blitz. I would have needed to attack the Legionnaires with something first.

I didn't realize the Legionnaires were Scouts.

T'hawk Transports attack ability is limited at best. They have 4 dices at 5+ so would have done one hit. Against 6 Legionnaires with 3 hits. If the second would have failed the save ~50% chance at doing so, it would have exploded. Besides T'hawk Transports have 4 units vs 6 units of Legionnaires (before attacks) so I don't see how I would have had outnumbering.


There were only 3 models in the pic at the end of turn 3.  The description said the Transports' strafing run was after one of the other Thawks hit them and broke them.  The Transport attack did no damage, so I assumed there were only 3 present at that point.

6 legionnaires instead of 3 would obviously be completely different.

Also remember that T'hawk SB and CAS don't have transport so they cannot land.

Doh!  :blush:

And we played that the Knights have scout rule as well.

Any chance to get Lord I to update the list :). As the Legionnaires Scout removal would have made difference on the game (and to some extent the Knights as well).

I thought just the knights were going to lose Scout, but I don't recall that for the Legionnaires.  Of course, taking into account that I didn't realize the Legionnaires were Scouts to begin with, I might have that backwards.

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