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[batrep] EC vs. SM (with new chaos flyers)

 Post subject: [batrep] EC vs. SM (with new chaos flyers)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:00 pm 
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Here we go again. Again, I would test new chaos flyer stats and form a yet better opinion of costs of different EC formations.

Rules used:
 EA Handbook 2008
 Flyers cannot affect objectives when they land
 Fearless units must fall back as other units (to 15cm away)

Space Marines ("Blood Angels")

Thunderhawk #1
  + Terminator Company + chaplain
Thunderhawk #2
  + Assault Company
  + Devastator Company
Tactical Company + SC
Tactical Company
Whirlwinds
Land Raiders + Hunter (bts)
Thunderbolts
Land Speeders (5)


Emperor's Children (2.02)
(same pink ones as before)

Chosen (with Sorceror Lord) + D.Pact  525 (bts)
Daemon Engines  (6 Defiler) 500
Daemon Knights   450
Bikes + Daemon Prince (SC) 375
Retinue (Sorceror Lord, 6 Noise Marines) 275
Questor #1  275
Questor #2  275
Hell Blades  (3) 200
Hell Talons (2) 125

(if you would use original point costs of EC 2.0, the sum would be same 3000, so only in-army cost balanced changed here)

SR: 4, 2d6 for action

Hell Blades: F, no sv, 2x 30cm AP4+/AT6+/AA6+
Hell Talons: FB, 5+, 45cm AT4+, 30cm AP6+/AA6+, 15cm 1BP IC
(all weapons FxF)

As Debasers suck I decided to use just Defilers.
Armies were random blind - SM player did not know I was going to use EC, and I had chosen my army before I knew I was going to play against SM.






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 Post subject: [batrep] EC vs. SM (with new chaos flyers)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:29 pm 
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First some thoughts about AA
Thunderhawk: to pose threat to it, required AA is at least something like 3 hydras (average 2 hits). In case of EC, this would mean like 4x debaser - 300 points of slow stuff which cannot be transported. And this still means extraodinary hits and very bad saves from marine player. So I just decided to go without one and use defilers....

SETUP



Marines did not garrison anything. Children put Daemon Engines to forest between blitz and one objective, Daemon Knights (in overwatch) to forest close to two other objectives, and Retinue (also in overwatch) to defend Daemon Engines and Blitz.



For reserve, EC had Chosen and Marines have stuff in Thunderhawks. Rest of the deployment is shown in the picture - for the Marines, from left flank to right: Tacticals with SC, Land Raiders, Whirlwinds, plain Tactical and Land Speeders. For EC, Questors on flanks and bikes in (their) left flank.


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 Post subject: [batrep] EC vs. SM (with new chaos flyers)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:02 pm 
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TURN 1:
No teleports.
Initiative: SM (with roll '1')

Whirlwinds open fire at Daemon Knights but no hits. Daemon Engines shoot shells at Land Speeders but only one hit which is saved. So much for the artillery.

Thunderbolts are put to CAP. Hell Talons scream over battlefield toward plain Tacticals and are intercepted by Thunderbolts which shoot the other Hell Talon down. The remaining one misses all marines and their rhinos.


(ground attack, CAP, intercept -chain)

Land Raiders advance toward Daemon Knights which open Overwatch. 5 hits ares scored but all saved. In return, Land Raiders hit 3 Daemon Knights which also save all. Hell Blades intercept Thunderbolts and succeed to shoot one down.

Plain Tactical Marines double into buildings. Slaanesh Bikes double to hide behind the hill across the buildings.

Thunderhawk fitted with Terminators soars toward (Slaanesh) right flank Questor, engage it and tear its legs with power weapons, crashing it down. In echange, Questor destroys one Terminator. The other Questor doubles toward Terminators, opens fire, does 5 hits and wipes them all out!


(there were terminators)

Land speeders double toward Slaanesh bikes but miss all. SC Tacticals advance and open fire at Daemon Knights, destroying two and force remaining to fall back behind the woods.


(bikes harassed by land speeders)

The other Thunderhawk attacks Bikes (without dropping its tactical and devastator marines) and manages to destroy one bik.. err steed rider.

All formations rally. Land Speeders are left with one blast marker, Daemon Knights with two. Remaing Hell Talon has 3 and Thunderbolt 2.


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 Post subject: [batrep] EC vs. SM (with new chaos flyers)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:04 pm 
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TURN 2:
Chosen teleport to forest next to Whirlwinds and get 1 BM.



Initiative: EC (SM roll '1')

For the very first time, teleported Chosen has chance to act!
They engage Whirlwinds and while Whirlwinds luckily succeed to ran over one Chosen, all of them are wiped out (terminators obviously do not save in this fight).

Questor retains and advances back toward left flank and opens fore at Land Speeders. Despite the heavy shooting only one is destroyed. Land Speeder sustain fire (after some yelling in comm-link by their SC) at Bikes next to them but fail to hit any.

Daemon Engines rain shells at the top of Land Raiders and some Tactical Marines from SC Company but hit nothing and only cause blast markers (did I say something about useless artillery..). In return, the empty Thunderhawk targets the Bikes, destroys two and forces remaining Daemon Prince and bike to fall back behind a hill in SM edge of the table near Blitz and one other objective.

Hell Talon with 3 blast markers (they had to exit via SM edge) decide to repair for this turn, as do Thunderbolt with 2 BM.

Daemon Knights double over the hill in the center and open fire at plain Tacticals in the buildings. One is killed. In response, Land Raiders advance and open fire at Daemon Knights, destroying one and forcing the rest to fall back behind the hill.

Retinue next to Blitz still stays in Overwatch (as it did last turn, which I forgot to mention). SC Tactical Company doubles to forest close to Daemon Knights and objective.

Hell Blades ground attack Land Speeders, kill 2 and force remaining to fall back. They take retreat position near edge objective. Plain Tacticals doubel toward EC blitz and fire single blast marker to Daemon Engines.

Then down comes the Thunderhawk with Assault and Devastator marines. They engage Daemon Engines and Questor in forest close to EC blitz and one objective. Noise Marines in Overwatch deal one Blast marker to them.

(this is going to hurt. Both)

In big fight, almost all marines are destroyed but only one Daemon Engine. However, the support fire from plain Tacticals destroy 3 Daemon Engines more. Chaos still wins the resolution and only lone Devastator survives which falls back to buildings in the center. Thunderhawk is hacked to pieces before it can take off. In return, Daemon Engines are also routed and they fall back behind the hill.


Daemon Engines and Land Speeders do not rally. Devastator, plain Tacticals, Daemon Knights and Land Raiders rally and are left with one blast marker. Others rally and have no BM.






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 Post subject: [batrep] EC vs. SM (with new chaos flyers)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:21 am 
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TURN 3

Initiative: Space Marines



SC Tactical Company engage Daemon Knights, kill one and force remaining to retreat. Knights fall back to block the advance of Land Raiders.

Plain Tactical Company retines, tries sustain (or was it engage..), fails, SC yells at them but they are still too shaken. They shoot at Questor but do not hit. Questor (with 2 BM) has to marshal. It shoots at plain Tacticals, killing 2 stands.

Thunderbolt fires rockets at Bikes, killing the remaining bike and routing Daemon Prince to cover. Lone Hell Talon bombs the single Devastator in building and while misses with its attacks, routs it. It falls to cover behind the hill.

Thunderhawk comes down at Retinue and kills one. Hell Blades attack Land Speeders, killing one and wiping the remaining out via blast markers.

Land Raiders sustain fire at Daemon Knights which are wiped out. Chosen double toward edge objective and shoot at lone routed Devastator. At last the 'disrupt' has some use as Devastator is destroyed via blast markers.

Marines have no activations left. Retinue engages plain Tacticals, kills remaining Tactical stands and forces remaining Rhinos to rout. They speed to right flank. Retinu is also broken in engagement and they spread out to block the SC tacticals from reaching the blitz.

In the rally phase, Rhinos and Retinue fail to rout, others do.

Victory conditions: 0-0






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 Post subject: [batrep] EC vs. SM (with new chaos flyers)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:28 am 
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TURN 4

Initiative: Space Marines



Thunderbolt comes down at Daemon Prince to rout it, hits and kills it! (well, to be honest, I think it has never succeeded in armor roll.. RA 4+ is paper). Daemon Engines marshal and open fire at SC Tacticals with no effect.

SC Tacticals sustain (after reroll) at Retinue, killing one. Chosen move to secure Blitz and edge objective.

Now EC has 2 victory conditions and there is not much SM can do about it. Together we go through several chances the SM has and then find one plan for them...

Thunderhawk goes roaring down next to EC blitz - so positioned that it blocks Questor from reaching the Blitz (Daemon Engines are just like 16cm away from the blitz) and just barely engages routed Retinue. It wins the engagement and last remaining Noise Marine is forced to move a bit away.. (here the new fearless rule differs: in original rules, the Noise Marine could have stayed there blocking the route to the blitz objective. Not now)

Space Marines retain with Land Raiders and march to EC Blitz. They also leave one LR close enough to last objective so that if the Questor moves to contest other objective, they would still have 2.

The Questor then engages Land Raiders, kills one and wins marginally. Land Raiders are routed and EC wins.

Victory conditions: 2-0 for EC (blitz, take and hold)

(if the Questor would have failed, the point difference would have been something like +500 for EC)






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 Post subject: [batrep] EC vs. SM (with new chaos flyers)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:37 am 
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Afterthought:

Flyers were okay I guess. Hell Talons never hit anything so a bit hard to say that they were overpriced...

EC Bikes seem still too expensive even for 325 points (instead of 350). I doubt I will use them in the future, or not that often. Too specialised - no ranged attacks, so many points in such an unit. On paper they seem very powerful but in practise they have not been. 300 points for them and then maybe...

Both of us hated the normal E:A objective tricks on the last turn - chains of units to control two objectives, blocking tricks with routed units etc. Too many objectives, too few activations left I guess..


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 Post subject: [batrep] EC vs. SM (with new chaos flyers)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:24 pm 
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Hi, Blood Angels player here. Thought I'd give you the other side's point of view too.

First of all, my miniatures aren't that bright red. :;): The flash makes them look completely different, even the apothecary glows like a miniature sun in the army pic. The ones out of the flash in the turn 4 pic are far closer to the truth.

The bikers seemed pretty ok to me. But they had that nasty demon prince and were threatening my weak flank with lots of objectives, so I really wanted them dead. Last time I played against Slaanesh, they were a major pain. Then again, they did summon demonic beasts to help.

Hopefully I didn't make too many bad mistakes, apart from the horrid dice rolling with my airstriking squads. (I thought terminators had a 75% chance of making their saves!) The big fight was a bit of a gamble, but I was itching for a fight and had completely forgotten the defilers got an additional firefight attack, which is why I tried to place my troops so they couldn't reach base contact. Maybe I should pay more attention to the capabilities of troops I haven't seen before. Although I've had nothing but bad luck with air assaults, even the time I borrowed some eldar and loaded a vampire with striking scorpions and dark reapers with exarchs. They got completely wiped out without killing anything, and that was against a lone scout titan. :p

It was a fun game, but I kinda dislike the objective rules though. It's like a whole different game in itself, from the placement of the objectives and garrisoning (which rpr obviously handled far better, getting those horrible artillery units behind a forest so they couldn't be shot at and guarding two objectives with their engage capabilities of shooty, pointy doom of clawingness) to fiddling around in the last turn to grab objectives. Quite a shock to hear a damaged scout titan can simply march and deny you an objective your nearly unhurt tactical detachment is sitting on. I didn't even think of that. :;): In hindsight, I should've bombed the terminators with my thunderhawk. With the RA-saves we were rolling, I probably would've killed half of them and removed them from the objective. When borrowing the eldar, I won with four swooping hawks teleporting behind a hill in some godsforsaken corner of the battlefield, then nabbing two objectives as my last activation. Although I was winning anyway, that really wasn't a cool way to end the game.

Looks like I need to paint some more marines and try out new stuff. Maybe a blister of drop pods and dreadnoughts next? Hopefully I'll get a game against something different, so far six of my seven games have been against either space marines that shall know no fear, or fearless space marines. The one game against eldar was like a dream come true, when I didn't have to grind every single unit into dust one by one. Although with my luck, I'll face some kind of titan legion or gargant mob next.  :laugh:


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 Post subject: [batrep] EC vs. SM (with new chaos flyers)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:34 pm 
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(Wisp @ Dec. 16 2007,15:24)
QUOTE
Although with my luck, I'll face some kind of titan legion or gargant mob next.

Well let's play again some day and I can wield Orks, there should be lots to kill and many fleeing feet...
(or I can wield Imperial Guard, I'm also updating it.. )


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 Post subject: [batrep] EC vs. SM (with new chaos flyers)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:40 pm 
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Thanks for the great battle report rpr!

And welcome to the forums, Wisp!

Looking forward to many more batreps from you two!

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 Post subject: [batrep] EC vs. SM (with new chaos flyers)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:55 pm 
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(rpr @ Dec. 15 2007,15:29)
QUOTE
First some thoughts about AA
Thunderhawk: to pose threat to it, required AA is at least something like 3 hydras (average 2 hits). In case of EC, this would mean like 4x debaser - 300 points of slow stuff which cannot be transported. And this still means extraodinary hits and very bad saves from marine player. So I just decided to go without one and use defilers....

Another great report rpr!

I think you are still underestimating the debasers. Sure, a debaser is not going to take out a Thunderhawk, but that's not really what you are paying points for.

If a fully-kitted out thunderhawk makes an air assault against one of your formations (assuming no BM already), if you can even fire a single AA shot against it you are going to give your formation a +2 combat resolution bonus for the upcoming assault. The Disrupt makes that even better against aircraft like the Thunderhawk - if you score a hit, the 'Hawk is going to automatically break at the end of the action if it lands.

However, I'll take a critical look at Debasers anyway. Now, how would you feel if we let in those insane Obliterators into our nice, pink army? Would they be a more viable AA choice?

I think your points changes look reasonable. I'll start preparing a new version based off these.


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 Post subject: [batrep] EC vs. SM (with new chaos flyers)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:57 pm 
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Welcome to the forums WISP.  As an alternative to objectives maybe try using one of the 40k missions for a change, actually maybe I should do an article translating some of them to EA.

Great report rpr :)

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 Post subject: [batrep] EC vs. SM (with new chaos flyers)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:20 pm 
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(Markconz @ Dec. 16 2007,19:57)
QUOTE
As an alternative to objectives maybe try using one of the 40k missions for a change, actually maybe I should do an article translating some of them to EA.

Hey Markconz!  I'm working on such a document myself, the Red Queen Rising games inspired it.

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 Post subject: [batrep] EC vs. SM (with new chaos flyers)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:49 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Dec. 16 2007,21:55)
QUOTE

I think you are still underestimating the debasers. Sure, a debaser is not going to take out a Thunderhawk, but that's not really what you are paying points for.

Yeah I know but when compared to other AA units... it is expensive, slow and cannot be transported or dropped... And against Defiler, it loses half the firepower - high price to pay for single blast marker :]


However, I'll take a critical look at Debasers anyway. Now, how would you feel if we let in those insane Obliterators into our nice, pink army? Would they be a more viable AA choice?

I do not know enough of fluff if that would be okay that way.. but I can convert and test some.  As AA, they are much more effective and can be dropped or teleported to places..

Of course if Defilers, and thus all variants, would get 25cm move then the Debaser AA would be able to move a bit.

(Actually I do not want AA that much, I want MW or some ranged way to fight heavy armor... - how about Debaser Ultrasonic Disruptor as MW.... O:]


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 Post subject: [batrep] EC vs. SM (with new chaos flyers)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:21 pm 
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(Chroma @ Dec. 16 2007,19:20)
QUOTE

(Markconz @ Dec. 16 2007,19:57)
QUOTE
As an alternative to objectives maybe try using one of the 40k missions for a change, actually maybe I should do an article translating some of them to EA.

Hey Markconz!  I'm working on such a document myself, the Red Queen Rising games inspired it.

Cool! The E40k missions could be another source of inspiration actually. I should did those out :)

On topic, is it worth doing a reaver or warlord in a 3k EC list or is that just too many points in one unit? All I've got in my EC list for sure now is the Daemon Knights, and some fighters.

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