I'm all for making bodies cheaper and the fancy zzappy upgrades more expensive (for blitz brigades and stompa mobs). Infiltrate on boyz/nobz/grotz (maaaaybe even dreads and kans too) also sounds like a fantastic idea to start testing with. I'm sure some batreps with one or both of those changes wouldn't be frowned upon... (I'd offer to do some, but I have exactly one local opponent, and he's got a kid, so scheduling is tough)

In before Jimmy gets here and says the same thing...

You should Vassalize some opponents.

Unfortunately I only have a Chromebook rather than a proper computer, and it doesn't look like Vassal is available as a browser extension/app.

I'd like to weigh in on the suggested changes here. My gaming group is small and our meta isn't extremely competitive (for example, we are only vaguely aware of how to pull off a clipping assault, and some of our lists are hamstrung by model availability) but we still feel that running a "properly Orky" Gaz Horde list with several foot mobs yields anemic results. Mobs of boyz should be the solid core of an Ork army but they are vulnerable to assault by more maneuverable opponents and they're hard to use aggressively. Adding Battlewagons to make them mobile is a mixed bag as they feel fragile and overpriced.

However, we have noticed that the Landa is a valid deployment option and if it can get through AA and CAP, da boyz inside can murder a vulnerable enemy opponent. So I would prefer minor changes that improve mobs without greatly improving a Landa deployed mob, which I already think is effective. Here's my take on everyone's suggestions:

- Agree that adding Infiltrator for Orks on foot would help foot lists make Assaults. It would also help mobs coming out of a Landa, but not as much (correct me if I'm wrong, but all it doubles is the deployment distance from the vehicle?). This could help with clipping assaults by allowing Orks to get a charge off. This seems like a big change.

- Agree Battlewagons are overpriced. They either need a point drop, an armor increase, or both. Doesn't impact clipping much but a small point decrease should need minimal testing.

- Agree Stompas require a point decrease and this is discussed ad nauseum in this forum - cheaper Stompas won't help foot mobs much but it's still needed.

- Agree we should look at wholesale stealing the EUK battlefortress oddboy shield.

I want to throw another option on the table:

- Make Mob Rule count +1/+2 for combat resolution as well

It seems like a minor change that would help large Ork formations of any type with clipping assaults and further incentivize taking the 'Uge option. All those boyz that are sitting back out of range of the enemy's cleverly placed units should still contribute to the fight through weight of numbers and Waaagh-power instead of breaking and running after a few casualties. This helps foot or mech mobs more than it helps Landa mobs.

Yeah, I think you're entirely correct, and I am all in for any pricing changes that make the mainstay elements of an Ork army a more attractive option compared to the current "optimal" choices.

Unfortunately, pricing changes are only really effective at fixing "internal balance", as you say. They don't address fundamental rules problems.

For example, I don't think people run Landa mobs because they're "attractively priced". They run them because Air Assault is an effective way of bringing CC stats to bear, and because the alternatives are brought low by the very nature of the game - foot assault is generally too difficult, and mechanised assault requires infantry to stay in their transports, which is far too dangerous.

In that situation, making infantry/mechanised mobs cheaper is a nice incentive, but it doesn't address the actual problem. Reductio ad absurdum: it doesn't matter how cheap you make a poop sandwich, people still aren't going to want to eat it.

Again, don't get me wrong - I would be happy to see the kind of points adjustments and other tweaks that this discussion seems to be settling on, and they will almost certainly help. All I want to get across is that reducing points costs is a very narrow way of treating a symptom of (what I consider to be) a much broader problem.

Good point there, Kadeton, i agree to most of it. But point changes will help with balance between Oddboyz and Supa-Stompas with the formations are used to field them.

And GrimDArkBits:


Yes, it is wrong, Inflitrator only helps with the charge move, not with counter-charges neither disembarking, so Landa and mechanized mobs won't get much benefit from it apart from the part about ignoring control zones.



It is a big change, but i have to agree that it would make taking BIG and 'UGE mobs more common outside 5000+ points games and makes sense fluff side for Orks that consider stupid to retreat, save Blood Axes. It will promote taking one or two BIG formations more per army but don't think will change much more due to number of activations being fundamental in this game. Another problem it would add is that it would make even normal Kults of Speed even more powerful than which they are already.

So maybe, to avoid benefiting Normal formations it would be better something similar to adding +3 for tripling the enemy size and +4 for four times. It will only help BIG and 'UGE and will be less of a change, but on the other side it is probably a too small of a change as even with that i doubt many would take them except for Kults so won't solve a thing. But overall i think that adding or change specail rules should be our last resort to solve this.

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What you are describing is dissatisfaction in the effectiveness of the underlying rules of EA and has nothing to go with Orks per say. They're a proximity example, not the actual source of your point as in I can make pretty much the same arguments about say Marine air assault vs armour builds. The RAW are simply set up to make air assault far more flexible and powerful than ground pounding. That's not about list structure, for the most part, but EA itself (though perhaps Orks are especially problematic and effected by this or at least for how you'd like to see them on the table-I love a green tide myself so I get ya). So perhaps this discussion really should be pulled out of this Ork specific thread here and we discuss the rules and air assault vs mech and footslogger appropriateness/relative power for EA rules there? It's a good discussion; Just not here where Tiny Tim can't do anything about it. I mean he's running orks, not the rules, yea?

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Is there any arguments against giving Infiltrate to boys, grots and nobs? Would be interesting to hear anyone think it's a bad idea and why...

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I think the ork problem is built into the rules; NetEA is designed to reflect an era of war where firearms are superior to close-combat weapons. A ruleset for Medieval or Ancient warfare would no doubt be different. I don't really mind this, it's a science fiction (ish) game after all.

Thus, I don't actually mind the CC-oriented units being rubbish compared to similar FF-oriented units - as long as I can get twice as many CC-oriented units for the same points.

Specifically, for Orks, Infiltrate to me is an elite or beast feature; orks should arrive at normal running pace (ie, slowly) but in large numbers. So, I'd favour just making them a bit cheaper.

Also, there is the slippery slope argument - if Ork boyz gets infiltrate, then why not Cultist Mutants? Or Carnifexes? They all need a way to get into CC...

Infiltrate would also help foot warbands due to the Orks' struggle to march. It would basically give them an engage range equivalent to a march+engage with a double+infiltrate engage. I'll see if my regular opponent will OK me giving it a try.

Would a price increase be necessary perhaps?

SpeakerToMachines has nailed my objections to Infiltrate. Yes it helps address a mechanics issue Ork foot mobs face, and if you squint, it's thematically appropriate (sure, Orks would charge headlong into combat!)

But really it's patching over a rules problem with slow foot CC units in general, using a rule that almost any foot CC unit would benefit from but few really deserve if we're being honest.

I know there is resistance to new special rules, but I believe that Orks need a way to consistently bring their weight of numbers to bear in close combat even if they are the ones being charged. Whether it's a hefty combat resolution bonus or a full counter-charge move, it would make mobs tough to shift and make clipping assaults tougher.

Failing that, we can take the "free market" approach. Make the infantry mob so cheap it approaches spammable, leave the Battlewagons and gunwagons where they are (as they're considered overpriced as transports) and increase the Landa cost so the mob + Landa is the same price as now. This will make Kult + Landa more expensive but I consider that acceptable considering how effective that seems.

Totally, I get that.

I'm posting about these things here because I feel like the Orks are the faction that most suffers as a result. By "suffers", I don't mean that they can't win games and compete at the highest level, but that they are the faction whose gameplay "feel" is the most divorced from player expectations. It's true that the infantry v mech v air assault disparity affects Space Marines as well, for example, but the difference is that a surgical strike via Thunderhawk insertion is totally a thing that Space Marines should be doing all the time so nobody seems to mind too much when it turns out that's the most effective way to run them. (Though the Assault Marines v Devastators comparison is certainly a reflection of the same underlying issue.)

While Tim can't change the core rules directly, he can approach those who can from a position of authority and a platform to speak on behalf of Ork players generally. In the same context, I'm a nobody with loud and annoying opinions who is easily dismissed - I'm just one guy, right? Essentially, I'm hoping that if enough Ork players agree with me that there are fundamental mechanics that cause generalised problems for Orks, we can get those concerns escalated to a level where core rules can be effected, by someone that will actually be listened to.

The list already has 30cm movement infantry and infiltrator infantry available, has anyone tested replacing warbands with 200 point kommandos or stormboys formations to see if the proposed changes to infantry wold work as desired.

Would allowing these units to replace boys in warbands be worth testing.

I rather like the idea that an Uge Mob counts as inspiring.

Infiltrate seems to be the default call for any struggling close assault unit and I'm not sure it's the right move.

I'd say improving transport options is a far better move. Squat bezerkers with pretty similar stats to boyz work fine out of rhinos (just don't expect them to work wonders). In general, infantry that aren't going to play a static defensive role need transports, orks have lots of transports, surely that could be made to work? Copying epic uk power fields on fortresses is a no brainier for me. Oddly, this also helps gargants as you then get speedy infantry which can support them.

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Yeah mechanizing orks far cheaper (like stupid cheap) and the power fields are no brainers. Part of me even asks if Ork should pay for regular AV transport on a per unit basis, at least for Battlewagons. I mean they make prodigious numbers of Trukks out of everything laying around it just seems odd from the ork background, going all the way back to ye olden days, to be paying a premium on them. And they certainly shouldn't be a hard to use number like 35 points. Perhaps there's a middle ground with a free/almost free LV 'Trukk' that's basically has a crap FF value but no ranged attack and carries 2 units? Like those really crappy ones in the Gorka Morka style and Battlewagons represent the bigger 40k Big Trakks and stay as is stats-wise?

Making everything infiltrate is basically a giant can of worms and nothing but a hack to get around the fact that EA rules disadvantage CC ground pounding troops. Pretty soon we have it on everything from Assault Marines to Bezerkers and it just becomes the new CC standard (so why have the ability?).

The idea that 'Uge mobs get inspiring is interesting to think out more.

kadeton, I get you man. I'm just saying that pro forma, might work better about getting traction on the discussion long term to separate it from here, that's all.

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