I agree that it's a fix to a problem that has mostly to do with the base rules, but I don't see that as a problem. Since in the case of orks infiltrate is actually a fitting solution. Not in the sneaky way but rather in the waaagh running forward crazy charge.



How about tying it to the mob rule (for warbands that is)? +1 and +2 respectivly. That would be fluffy.

My twopence worth
We need to be careful to distinguish between adding reasonable ‘fluffy’ stuff, and reacting to “power creep” elsewhere. This is one of the core lists after all, that can still do well in the right hands, and which should be a constant against which all newer lists are evaluated (along with marines and IG).

That said, I do like the idea of adding junk trucks/buggies to basic formations for a cheaper price. Indeed you might even follow the marine example by allowing them to take ‘basic transport’ for free, which could be defined as odds and ends put together by the orks. Such ‘vehicles would have a slower move (20 cm?) and no CC or FF capability. The ‘transport’ is lost when the owning ork unit is destroyed, and does not count for casualties (basically it gives the owning ork unit a temporary movement boost until it is destroyed by enemy fire, dangerous terrain or is discarded etc). Given the ork’s random nature, these ‘vehicles’ are LV, ranging from skateboards up to armoured cars, and perhaps should be diced for to see whether the formation is entirely equipped?
This would also provide a form of ‘infiltrate’ by giving the orks so equipped a 25cm assault including their dismount distance. . . .

I also like the idea that ‘uge warbands gain +1, - though it raises the question of the number of units below which they lose this benefit - although this is a relatively big boost (albeit possibly necessary to match power creep elsewhere). However it is in keeping with the list theme and might encourage the use of larger formations

If a new transport is added to the orks (which I very much doubt will happen) it should be something to cover the heavier ork transport (called a battlewagon in 40k though it'd need to be re-named as it's much larger than the epic battlewagon) which can carry 20 / 4 stands and has better armour, maybe 5+ reinforced. The epic Truk, Gunwagon and Battlewagon already model the lighter orks vehicles well.

Having foot orks be more aggresively viable would be appropriate but I'm undecided about the infiltrate idea, perhaps people could test it out and see. In 40k orks are slower than humans (5" move rather than 6" move) however they do have a special rule allowing them to re-roll their charge move D6. I'm more inclined to slightly drop the cost of the foot warband and slightly increase he cost of the lander, plus give small boosts to the gunwagon (4+ save llike it has in the French Epic list) and a small drop of the battlewagon unit stats to 25.

I guess we can discuss and perhaps test some things, but we're waiting for Tim to decide things and I expect he's busy testing the new 3mm game at the moment.

I'm curious, what game?

Dominion.

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Increasing the cost of the Landa means it would no longer be possible to take a Gargant, Landa and three fighta-bommers in a standard 3000 points list. That's a pretty significant change just to decrease the cost of a Warband.

It also nerfs other Landa + cargo combos without need.

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I don't see the point in nerfing landas. They're one of the better units orks have. If the aim is to make the list a little stronger surely keep the good units and improve some of the others?

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I do like the idea of giving Inspiring to larger mobs - it's really fluffy - but it probably shouldn't apply to all mobs. Skorchas certainly don't need the boost.
It could be made specific to non-grot infantry, and maybe AV walkers as well to buff Dreads, Kans and Stompas. If the requirement was 10< (so you could fold it into the Mob Rule) it wouldn't give any undue boost to warbands in landas either.

Yeah, it's right that Kults don't need the boost with Inspiring, but it would be the only formation in that case, and 'UGE Kults are hard to see, even though it is the formation that is taken as BIG or UGE the most on tournaments, with the Blitz as a very close second.

So how about the +1 to rally on 6+ units, +2 to rally on 11+ like we have now and Inspiring at 16+?



But it would make Kommandos lose the little role they have, that's one of the reasons i proposed before a diluted version that doesn't ignore zones of control and its restricted to CC, just to issue only the problem. Also would only make better the Nobz, Boyz and Grotz, any other slow unit in a warband (Big Gunz, Killa Kans, Dreadnoughts, Stompas) will become even more worthless, and they are being taken very scarcely already ...

Also it will need a points increase, nerfing them for mechanized and landas.

But would be nice to have for a DethSkullz army list and their sneaky Lootaz, where it would also make sense for the Grotz to be sneaky.

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I like this. Inspiring is better and cleaner than just applying the Mob Rule bonus to close combat. It's a very small boost, but it seems like a natural extension of Mob Rule. Letting it buff 'Uge Kult formations is acceptable as that's an expensive and somewhat fragile formation that I doubt gets run very often.

I would couple this with a points drop for Big and 'Uge boyz Warbands and their transports:

- Normal/Big/Uge is 200/350/500, I would try out 200/325/450

- Point drop for Battlewagons from 35 to 25

I would do something similar with Mekboy Stompamobs:

- Normal/Big/Uge from 225/400/575 to 200/375/525

- Decrease extra Stompas from 75 to 65

- Increase Supa-Stompa from 275 to 300 to prevent spamming

hey guys,

in the light of the infiltrator polarism building up would it be a heretical thought to circumvent it by being able to move orks around the field on foot more effectively without making them able to ignore zones of control and the like?

So:
why not include the "march" action into power of the waagh rule? would count for all ork units. this will bring more of your foot slogging units closer to the enemy in shorter time without facing too many casualuties and nasty hold actions before becoming effective. as a downside you would of course lose any shooting and support fire ability. with their love for speed this also seems appropriate (at least somehow). that would mean it does not change much for blitz brigades or cult of speeds as the are mobile enough on double action and would seldom take march then as it would effectively take out any sting of them. it also (more importantly) would not effect the landa/air assaults options but would make warbands on foot a bit more agile to get into position.

cheers

We all know the issue with CC vs FF but as with others I can't see infiltrate being the solution. I see no justification for orks ignoring zone of control, nor that they would run faster than eldar, berserkers etc. It's a non starter for me. In an ideal world allowing units to double their charge move if they do not firefight would transform the fortunes of CC troops, but of course it cannot happen - the rules are fixed and even if it were a special rule (given to almost every CC specialist), it'd be a massive rebalancing for every list.

However when it comes to Orks, remember that in epic we are representating a battle on a much wider area than in 40K, which is more akin to an epic engagement. That only garrisons and objective holders are deployed without transports makes perfect sense to me - everything else would be transported to the front line before the charge and redeployed afterwards. The 'ork horde advancing' can just as easily represent 'after being delivered by their transports, the orks charge ahead into close combat', rather than a 10 mile hike, slipping unseen into the midst of the enemy (infiltrate).

What this means for epic orks is that simply tweaking the transport options may well work wonders. I don't think a new free unit is necessary, making the existing one good value (and just cheaper overall) should suffice - enough to make the mounted warband a mainstay of the army, with the odd landa for deep strikes.

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So make their battle wagons cost 10 points then. Like a rhino for chaos marines.

Lowering them just a little to 25p wont do anything to help. Or am i confusing units now? They cost 35p now right?

Edited because 5p was crazy cheap for it's stats...

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They're too expensive at 35p, sure, but they're much better than rhinos - no more durable, but a lot shootier and better in FF too. I think 20-25p is approriate.

Regarding durability, their 5+ armour always puzzled me - the 40K scale battlewagons are much sturdier than rhinos. Was there an earlier generation of fragile GW battlewagons that these are supposed to represent?