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2017 - Ork Review

 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:27 pm 
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Oh i dont mind that at all. Stompas need more love! :-)

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:17 am 
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Cheers Tim. Will post up some thoughts this eve


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:41 am 
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how about reducing skorcha armour to 6 ?


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 10:45 pm 
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Saukopfblende wrote:
Make Gunwagons playable!


Yeah, it'd be great if they were more than just oddboy delivery systems or a vehicle that you promptly swap out for a flakwagon.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 1:12 pm 
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Ok, keep them coming.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 1:52 pm 
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Gunwagon get 4+ save?
Maybe overpowered, maybe not?

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 6:01 pm 
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Stompas definitely need some lovin'. Maybe give them leader or allow oddboy upgrades for their Big Gunz?


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 9:48 pm 
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Agreed that Stompas and Gunwagons have long needed love.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 4:25 pm 
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Yeah, those two need some upgrade to be as viable as other options. Gunwagons the most maybe, as opposite to Bikes/Buggies/Skorchas and Killas/Dreads/Stompas they have no role to fill as those +15cm can't outdo Flakwagons even on ground ( better on double against cover and sustain, and bigger potential damage (2 shots)), but unfortunately there was never a solution as all the proposals were turned down. If i remember well, 4+ armour for not being orky or not the point of the unit, and upgrading Big Guns to AP4+/AT5+ because it requires tweaking on Speed Freeks' Fortress and Ferals' Squigoths and Orkeosaurus (all Ghazghkull units with Big Guns are barely used so those would give no problem if upgraded). Out of the two i prefer the second as it fits it's role.


But more than this one I am concerned about getting more viable builds for Ghazghkull's list at least, as I haven't played Ferals enough to say something, by:
- Making it possible to take formations of only Kommandos, only Killa Kans or only Dreadnoughts.
- Stompas down to 200 and Supa-Stompas up to 300.
- Make the Warbands a good option outside of in Landas. Maybe make a mechanized one at 200 points with 2x Nobz, 2x Boyz, 2x Gretchin and 2 Battlewagons? Still different from Speed Freek's warband but probably not enough, and quite frail while mounted so only good to grab some objective in an sneaky way and hope that some cover and its number when disembarked will save them.
- Would like to see Gunzmobs more but see no way how, apart from the Big Gun upgrade to AP4+/AT5+ and that has its problems too.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 9:35 pm 
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Dave wrote:
In no particular order:

Warhorde:
Lower Stompa cost while increasing Supa-Stompa.
--> Allow all Kommando Stormboyz Warhorde (and rename it?)
Fire-arcs on the Fighter Bombers

Speedfreeks:
Allowing units to shoot hasn't been an issue here. Whichever way we go the Junka Trukk should follow suit.

Ferals:
Walker on Squiggoth and Orkeosaurus
Fire-arcs on the Steam Gargants


+1 to what Dave said.

I'd be interested to see how you go here with the units being able to shoot whilst mounted cause it has some traction in the dark eldar list too. But DE raiders have a 4+ save which i think offsets it.

I also agree that skorchas are the best option. I hesitatingly suggest a 5 point cost per skorcha upgrade. Although i am skeptical that would be viable or acceptable.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 4:25 am 
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I think the Trukks and Junka Trukks, and any other LV transport should be able to have the transported unit shoot from it. They are able to be shot at by AT and AP weaponry, and thus have areas (holes and portals) where the troops on board can shoot from.

This goes for all Light Vehicles - Raiders & Venoms (Dark Eldar), Trukks & Junka Trukks (Orks), civilian light vehicles (adeptus sororitus), Truck and Land Transporter (genestealer Cult) that have a transport capability. Each is a LV, some have a slightly better save to account for their ability to jink, however they all seem to have very poor inbuilt weapon on the LV transport.

Most can only carry 1 or 2 units, and they all seem to be killed off very quickly. Some lists such as the various ork lists, have them as free transports for formations that have a lot of units which subsequently get a lot of transports that need killing off.

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In 40K, open topped vehicles that are penetrated by an enemy weapon, give the opponent +1 to the damage roll table. They also allow for troops carried on board to shoot from them, and are treated as assault vehicles.

In Epic we classify these open topped transport vehicles as light vehicles, and some lighter vehicles that are not classified as open topped like war walkers, and penitent engines also get classified as LV to account for their lower armour values . Epic makes it easier to kill them off by allowing both AP and AT weapons to target them.

Usually these vehicles, and light tanks/walkers are grouped in larger formations to make up for their fragility. They often have the advantage of being fast vehicles, and even skimmers, though you usually find their weapons load out is limited. Some can jink to make up for their low armour save, which in Epic is just an increased save value (so as not to complicate the rules). Allowing the LV transports - transported units to shoot from them is just a simple transfer of the 40K rules to Epic.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:34 am 
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Deb wrote:
I think the Trukks and Junka Trukks, and any other LV transport should be able to have the transported unit shoot from it. They are able to be shot at by AT and AP weaponry, and thus have areas (holes and portals) where the troops on board can shoot from.

This goes for all Light Vehicles - Raiders & Venoms (Dark Eldar), Trukks & Junka Trukks (Orks), civilian light vehicles (adeptus sororitus), Truck and Land Transporter (genestealer Cult) that have a transport capability. Each is a LV, some have a slightly better save to account for their ability to jink, however they all seem to have very poor inbuilt weapon on the LV transport.


The tricky thing is that in 40k you'd be allowed to fire small arms from onboard open-topped transports, but that doesn't amount to anything in Epic except in assaults. Whether or not you should be allowed to fire a stand's bit shoota is less clear.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 6:47 am 
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Re scorchas - their key advantage over bikes and buggies is the extra threat range (being FF orientated). Rather than changing S/FF or CC stats, would knocking 5cm off their movement make the choice more balanced?


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:49 am 
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carlisimo109 wrote:
Deb wrote:
I think the Trukks and Junka Trukks, and any other LV transport should be able to have the transported unit shoot from it. They are able to be shot at by AT and AP weaponry, and thus have areas (holes and portals) where the troops on board can shoot from.

This goes for all Light Vehicles - Raiders & Venoms (Dark Eldar), Trukks & Junka Trukks (Orks), civilian light vehicles (adeptus sororitus), Truck and Land Transporter (genestealer Cult) that have a transport capability. Each is a LV, some have a slightly better save to account for their ability to jink, however they all seem to have very poor inbuilt weapon on the LV transport.


The tricky thing is that in 40k you'd be allowed to fire small arms from on board open-topped transports, but that doesn't amount to anything in Epic except in assaults. Whether or not you should be allowed to fire a stand's big shoota is less clear.


I suppose it is less clear, however I my thinking is based on the fact that I often shoot from open topped Battlewagons and Trukks in 40K with my Lootas (upwards of 15 lootas), each shooting D3 strength 7 AP 4 heavy weapons at an enemy formation 48" away. They are poor shots, but make up for it with the number of shots.

The same can be said for most open topped vehicles where any occupants can shoot their weapons. I shoot Dark Lances/ Splinter cannon from my Dark Eldar Raiders in 40K as well. Most closed vehicles have very limited weapons fire from the occupants, and some do not allow occupants to fire at all like landraiders.

Many armies/players in 40K and Epic use their open topped/Light vehicles as mobile weapon platforms. The trade off is that the LV can be targeted by AP and AT weapons and so easily destroyed, and the troops on board are generally lost as well. I tend to advance, shoot from transports, hug cover until I get close enough to engage the enemy and overwhelm them, then relocate to do it all again. Typical glass hammer army that either wins well or loses very badly.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Ork Review
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:31 pm 
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I agree with what Dave wrote:

Quote:
In no particular order:

Warhorde:
Lower Stompa cost while increasing Supa-Stompa.
--> Allow all Kommando Stormboyz Warhorde (and rename it?)
Fire-arcs on the Fighter Bombers

Speedfreeks:
Allowing units to shoot hasn't been an issue here. Whichever way we go the Junka Trukk should follow suit.

Ferals:
Walker on Squiggoth and Orkeosaurus
Fire-arcs on the Steam Gargants


As much as I enjoy not having any fire arcs on the Fighta Bombers and the Feral Steam Gargants, they should have them. And yes, lower the Stompa's cost.

The Feral Squiggoth and Orkeosaurus should absolutely have Walker ability, especially when White Scar marine bikes and Baran Siegemasters Ragnarok tanks have it.

Lastly, In the Speedfreeks list, Biker Nobs should be an upgrade for "Kult of Speed" formations (and maybe Warbike Outrider formations?). It always seemed very odd to me that Nobs on Warbikes can't be added to formations of Warbikes.

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